Getting two guitars to "sit together" in the mix

[blackcloud45]

I'd say take them out, buy them some dinner, and let them get to know one another.

[Knuckle Bones]

I also don't believe in the "cut lows and low mids" mantra that's being repeated by a lot of people. Get your mic placement right, and get the sounds right on the amp, work on your arrangements, and you don't have to resort to massive EQ to make things work.

How much experience do you have in live sound? Do you want to know how much I have? Roll off the low and boost 5k a tad on the lead guitarist. Tweak the mids to taste.

[nerd]

Listen to Gn'R's AFD with headphones. The solos are in the middle, Izzy goes through the left and slash through the right. I may be mistaken though but i think they are panned 100%. It sounds fantastic anyway...
Actually Im now listening 'out ta get me' When the song starts you clearly get the point.

[CD9266]

I've never tried the pan everything but key aspects. I always took the concept of everything in the center except for the lead guitar and rhythm guitar. So bass, drums, vocals, keyboards are all running in the center. Then lead guitar on the left 75% and rhythm guitar on the right 75%. Now the guitar solo's are in the center.

I haven't tried to work panning on the drums yet but maybe we can improve on our stereo concept and I can try to tweak the drums to sound more like you are standing right in front of them but I won't have time to in the near future.

Oh and I was listening to Hendrix's Foxy Lady on the radio the other day in my car (which as left and right only, no extra stuff...) and I noticed that all the vocals were on one side, and the music was on the other side. I'm not sure if I was hearing it correctly or if radio had any part in that, but that's what I heard.

[otek]

How much experience do you have in live sound?

Quite a bit, although I have been in studio production exclusively for the past 10 years.

Do you want to know how much I have? Roll off the low and boost 5k a tad on the lead guitarist. Tweak the mids to taste.

Not sure it matters how much experience you have, since it seems you've replaced your ears with a one-size-fits-all cookie-cutter method.

I guess I could tell you how I used to do it live, but I fear listening is not one of your strong suits.


otek

[otek]

Then lead guitar on the left 75% and rhythm guitar on the right 75%.

Try 100% once. You can thank me later.


otek

[riffmonster]

I filled in on lead guitar in a band last year - the rhythm player played a tele - I usually play a LP, but I found what worked best for this band was me using a strat.

Also I found I had to play cleaner than usual to cut 'above' the tele (which was sort of crunchy sounding).

The main thing (as mentioned above) is the arrangements... it was quite a learning experience for me as I had to adapt to not 'tripping over' the other guitarists parts.

[Orphin]

Time out! Was the original post about the EQ on the amp or in the recording software?
Reason I'm asking this is that I noticed that otek obviously wasn't speaking about the amp's EQ while I was. The reason I was, is because the amp's EQ is an excessively overdosed discussion on this forum IMO, so I just took it for granted.

Why is that anyway, that so many guitarists believe that the amp's EQ can do magic?
I mean, I set my EQ at noon and rock! Then if something needs a little adjustment I fiddle a little and continue rocking!

Roll off the low and boost 5k a tad on the lead guitarist. Tweak the mids to taste.

As EQ is what its name is, an equalizer, I personally believe that it's best to use it as that, unless used for some special effects.
Some rooms just eats certain frequencies while the next room could as well resonate the same frequencies, so I'd use the EQ to compansate for this acoustic phenomenon.

[Le Chat Noir]

Since the discussion seems to have moved on into the realm of recording as well as live sound, I'd also strongly suggest than anyone who is planning to do hard panning in their mix should regularly check for mono compatibility. If it sounds wrong when switched to mono, you're probably also having phase problems which you won't necessarily notice when the guitars are hard panned.

[Borderline Productions]

I would say that the most important piece of equipment for doing live sound is a 31 band EQ. Every room is different. They now have computer technologies that give a room's or outdoor venues EQ profile and they work wonders.

No one has suggested that we start with the guitars sounding bad on purpose. I would suggest that you get each instrument to sound its best as starting point and then work it into the mix. It is very hard to make a guitar track sound better after the fact.

I like panning things apart, but sometimes complete separation doesn't sound as good. I hate the wall of sound to the point that I thought Phil Spector should have gotten a life sentence for what he did to All Things Must Pass.

We all have starting points that we know have been successful in the past. We use our ears to adjust from there.

If having two guitars, they should have very distinct parts, such that you could pick them out in a mono mix or a Phil Spector produced recording. Giving them their own space will only enhance that.

I like to hear the bass parts, especially when a band has a good/great bass player. You could hear the bass on recordings in the late 60's early seventies (Led Zep II is a good example). A good bass part offers some counterpoint that needs to be heard. That's why I like to give that part some room.

I have also noticed that a overly compressed/distorted guitar can easily get lost in the mix.

The simplest way to get a stereo drum sound it a pair of cardoid or Figure 8 mics positioned at an angle as overheads. Pan them completely apart. Have a kick drum mic panned to the center and you are all set to go.

[defrag]

Of course a 31-band graphic equalizer can be used for sculpting the EQ, I thought it was more used to "Ring Out" the venue instead. Or is this more applicable to an acoustic set?

[otek]

Since the discussion seems to have moved on into the realm of recording as well as live sound, I'd also strongly suggest than anyone who is planning to do hard panning in their mix should regularly check for mono compatibility. If it sounds wrong when switched to mono, you're probably also having phase problems which you won't necessarily notice when the guitars are hard panned.

Actually, I beg to differ. First off, you should ALWAYS check your sounds in mono (one-speaker mono preferably - read on). Second, panning hard left/right is not going to compound phase problems - if anything, it's going to lessen them compared to "in between" panning. Since you are panning your sound completely to one speaker or the other (or equally to both), you are effectively listening to a one point-source (or in the case of the center position, a perfectly symmetrical dual source) - in theory (and in practice, I might add) the most accurate way of displaying phase inaccuracies.

This way, you are taking the time-domain phase relationship between the speakers in the room out of the equation. If you have phase problems in the sound, they will manifest themselves in mono no matter what, but if you pan hard left or right in your mix, you will hear those problems much clearer even in stereo.

There are many benefits to using "cardinal" pan points, one of the most dramatic differences to me is how the mix translates MUCH better on other systems.


otek

[Le Chat Noir]

Since the discussion seems to have moved on into the realm of recording as well as live sound, I'd also strongly suggest than anyone who is planning to do hard panning in their mix should regularly check for mono compatibility. If it sounds wrong when switched to mono, you're probably also having phase problems which you won't necessarily notice when the guitars are hard panned.

Actually, I beg to differ. First off, you should ALWAYS check your sounds in mono (one-speaker mono preferably - read on). Second, panning hard left/right is not going to compound phase problems - if anything, it's going to lessen them compared to "in between" panning.

I didn't say hard panning was going to compound phase problems per se - I meant it might lead you to mix in a way that lead to phase issues in mono that won't necessarily be apparent without checking. For example, if you take one guitar track, duplicate it and pan them hard left and hard right, then flip the phase of one, it might sound quite big in stereo - but say goodbye to the guitar altogether when it's presented in mono.

Since you are panning your sound completely to one speaker or the other (or equally to both), you are effectively listening to a one point-source (or in the case of the center position, a perfectly symmetrical dual source) - in theory (and in practice, I might add) the most accurate way of displaying phase inaccuracies.

I don't quite get why you started with 'I beg to differ' - aren't you basically still agreeing with me that checking the hard panned guitars effectively in mono (by panning both to one speaker) is a good idea? I don't see where the disagreement is here.

I stand by my original statement. If a mix has tracks that are partially out of phase (left vs. right) in certain frequencies, when summed to mono it will partially null in those frequencies, so listening to the mix in mono, either by summing to mono or by panning everything to one speaker, is a valid phase compatibility test.

[CD9266]

So the best idea to check for phase problems is to run both tracks in mono where they are being layered over each other and listen for the phase problem? Got it.

[Le Chat Noir]

So the best idea to check for phase problems is to run both tracks in mono where they are being layered over each other and listen for the phase problem? Got it.

Well, that's what I do anyway. I often find myself surprised when I switch to mono and suddenly what sounded like a huge wall of guitar becomes muddy and/or quieter. I'm by no means a pro, just a happy amateur, and I've found listening in mono to really help me hear phase problems that more experienced engineers might have picked up anyway. I'm a musician first and foremost, just trying to do my best in my humble home studio In terms of panning, I generally stick to LCR panning in my mixes, but then again I keep things simple generally and I'm not layering a whole load of extra stuff. I often work on alternate mono mixes of stuff too, it's an interesting excercise.

P.S. I totally respect otek's opinion and I have read his posts whilst lurking on The Womb forums (assuming it's the same otek!), so I know he is knowledgeable on this subject! I think he just misinterpreted what I meant above.