No Serial Number

Maybe someone can help you date your Orange Amplifier?

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OliverKing
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No Serial Number

Post by OliverKing » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:11 pm

Hi Guys,

i never thought about how old my Orange Matamp is, but a good review in a german music magazine made me now curious.

There is nor serial number written, do you have any idea how old the amp could be.



Image

Image


Rock On,

Oliver

PopnFresh
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Post by PopnFresh » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:46 pm

Looks like an 1970's OR100, if you ring matamp (http://www.matamp.co.uk) they have awesome records and may be able to tell you the exact date, and who it was made for.
http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_MAT100.htm/
Image

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:38 pm

PopnFresh wrote:Looks like an 1970's OR100, if you ring matamp (http://www.matamp.co.uk) they have awesome records and may be able to tell you the exact date, and who it was made for.
http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_MAT100.htm/
Thank you very much, the Matamp people were very kind. The german Orange support was very weak, they even did not knew Matamp !!!!

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:00 pm

I'm afraid Matamp won't be able to help you without a serial number. I've gone through their records and they are all based on serial numbers.

Your best bet is to open the amp up and shoot some gutshots of the interior of the amp and post them here. That is the best way for us to figure out how old the amp is.
I have gathered all photos of all the Orange Matamps I've seen on the net and can hopefully help you some.

If we still can't help you then, your last chance is to call Matamp on a saturday at 11 o'clock brittish time and ask for John Firth. You have to have some luck to catch him while he's visiting the factory.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:22 pm

Orphin wrote:I'm afraid Matamp won't be able to help you without a serial number. I've gone through their records and they are all based on serial numbers.

Your best bet is to open the amp up and shoot some gutshots of the interior of the amp and post them here. That is the best way for us to figure out how old the amp is.
I have gathered all photos of all the Orange Matamps I've seen on the net and can hopefully help you some.

If we still can't help you then, your last chance is to call Matamp on a saturday at 11 o'clock brittish time and ask for John Firth. You have to have some luck to catch him while he's visiting the factory.
Hi David,

thank you, the guys from Matamp asked for pictures and i´ve sent the same i posted here. I try later to open the amp and make some fotos inside.




Rock On,

Oliver

Sooner
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Post by Sooner » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:48 pm

Looks like '69 ot '70:

http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/dating_page.htm

You should probably get a marker and write in 001 after the serial number before contacting MatamP... :P
Sooner
AD1512 Serial No. 001

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:40 pm

Oliver. Sending Matamp those pictures was a waste of time. If they reply at all, they will just say that the need to see the guts.
The marking on the Drive knob tells me that the amp is older, but the silk screen printing on the back tells me that the amp is newer. The oldest amps were marked by hand. The impedance switch tells me that the amp is newer.
The small knob on the back is interesting, is it an input signal knob? These were in the beginning located inside the amp and was later removed completely.
However, the amp doesn't seem to have a Cooper Mathias plate on the back (read below). The wooden rails under the amp looks suspicious. I've never seen rails looking like that before.
I'm looking forward to see these gut pictures though. :)

Sooner. I haven't seen that "dating page" before. Only a very few amps were built in 1969, and those who were built before 15th of August doesn't have that "Cooper Mathias" plate on the back.
And if I remember correct from when I spoke to John Firth, they didn't make the first EL34 100 watters until 1970.
Last edited by Orphin on Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:00 pm

If you read my post above before this post, you might want to read it again. I spoke too soon, but I have edited the post.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:34 pm

Thanks a lot to all of you. Should i afraid that i was rippid off years ago ?

A guy from Orange has send me this useful mail too:


I would comment as follows:

1. Manufactured late 1968 to early 1970. It is a very early model but without a serial number very difficult to date exactly.

2. The cabinet covering has been distressed with black.

3. The corners are the original 1 pin nylon corner, which were used on the very early models so I have no reason to doubt that the cabinet is also original.

4. The plywood black stained skids have been split into two pieces. This may have been modified at sometime as the original skids would have been solid wood. Plywood skids were not used until a bit later.

5. The 1amp fuse carrier has been changed.

6. The additional knob on the rear of the amp may have been an early presence control. I do not recall this being a factory modification as it is not labelled but the small rotary knob matches those used on the front end.

7. The serial number on these early models was added by hand in black paint prior to shipping and then lightly varnished over. I am unable to explain why it is missing although I can tell you that T-cut would easily remove it without damage to the chassis paintwork.

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:20 pm

OliverKing wrote:Thanks a lot to all of you. Should i afraid that i was rippid off years ago ?

A guy from Orange has send me this useful mail too:


I would comment as follows:

1. Manufactured late 1968 to early 1970. It is a very early model but without a serial number very difficult to date exactly.

2. The cabinet covering has been distressed with black.

3. The corners are the original 1 pin nylon corner, which were used on the very early models so I have no reason to doubt that the cabinet is also original.

4. The plywood black stained skids have been split into two pieces. This may have been modified at sometime as the original skids would have been solid wood. Plywood skids were not used until a bit later.

5. The 1amp fuse carrier has been changed.

6. The additional knob on the rear of the amp may have been an early presence control. I do not recall this being a factory modification as it is not labelled but the small rotary knob matches those used on the front end.

7. The serial number on these early models was added by hand in black paint prior to shipping and then lightly varnished over. I am unable to explain why it is missing although I can tell you that T-cut would easily remove it without damage to the chassis paintwork.
So I guess that "guy" from Orange is Mick Dines?
There are practically only two people left on Orange that knows thing from the past. Cliff of course, but no on e talks to him, and there's Mick Dines. He was there when it all went down but unfortunately he doesn't remember everything in detail.

1. The amp is not built in 1968. Only ten amps were built in 1968 for Fleetwood Mac and those hardly made it throughout the tour since they were built with an alu chassi that couldn't hold up the heavy trannies.
My guess is that the amp is built between the years 1970-1972.

2. Obviously.

3. This is absolutely false! I have seen the first ever Orange Matamp in person. I have pictures of it, and it has 2 pin nylon corners, and so does my Orange Matamp serial# 003. The newest Ormat OR100 I have pictures of is serial# 383 and it has these corners too. The 1 pin corners on your amp I have never seen before.

4. As I mentioned earlier, I do not recognise these skids either, maybe a mod?
He says that "plywood skids were not used until a bit later" which is somewhat true, but it was never solid wood. The prototype had round plastic feet, and mine has plywood skids, just as all other Ormats I've seen.

5. Correct.

6. I still believe in my theory. It's a knob that controls the input signal. Try to adjust this when playing, see if you will hear how the signal gets a little hotter.

7. True, serial number were painted by hand, and on the earlybirds everything was painted by hand.
I'm not familiar with T-cut, but I just don't buy it. I believe that a serial number was never added and the reason for that is simply that they forgot.

Take pictures of the insides of the amp. Look for signed initials somewhere, photograph these too.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:46 am

The "guy´s" name from Orange was not mentioned.

Ok, so here are the pics from inside,

Please accept that i post only a link to the pictures, so you can see them in full size.

Orange 1

Orange 2

Orange 3

Orange 4


Rock On,
Oliver

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:33 am

Very nice pictures!

I'll comment each picture:

1. The mains socket has been replaced. This is a very common mod and doesn't affect anything, even the value of the amp it seems.
The fuse socket as mentioned earlier.
The pot for the "loudness" control is smaller and shinier than the other pots. It could have been replaced, although the wiring doesn't look like a later on modification to me.
The first amps were hand wired on a turret board construction. This primitive PCB was introduced later on. I still haven't seen an OR100 with turret board.
I do not recognize the black electrolyte capacitors. None of the Ormats I've seen have those. They could very well be originals. They used what they had back then. But I wouldn't be surprised if they have been replaced either.
The rest of the components are without a doubt original.
The two metallic capacitors tells me this amp is one of the earlier.

2. Valvo tubes, old stock. These can still have plenty of juice left.
You should clean them though. Remove them (by holding the socket) and clean them with alcohol without oil. Use newspaper. Then wipe the off with dry new paper. Don't let the alcohol get to the dumet between the socket and glass.

3. From left; the new mains socket. The new 1A fuse holder. I still believe a serial number was never added to the back of the amp.
The loudness control is most definitely what I thought it was. I see you have set it to full, so have I.
The best clue in this picture is the speaker output washers. Matamp used white ones on the early amps and later used black.
(To change the voltage and impedance selector you pull it straight out. These don’t turn! Always match the impedance)

4. Unfortunately the numbers on the transformers aren't serial numbers. They just indicate if it's a mains transformer, output transformer and choke. The earliest amps used Pennine transformers.
The blue capacitor has been replaced.

Conclusion. Your amp is a very early OR100, that's for sure. How early is impossible to say. No one can date the amp exactly, but only narrow it down to a specific year, and I think that this amp was built in 1970. It might even be one of the first OR100.

If you want to know more about your amp, your best bet is to have John Firth take a look at these pictures while you speak to him over the phone.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:01 pm

Thanks a lot David.

There is one thing that i do know for sure, it is a fantastic amp. I remember playing it the first time at home and my father worked in the garden. He came in and said, "hey this amp sounds like your other amps."
I said wait and listen here in front of the 4x12 and after i played the first chords i noticed him starting to smile. He just said this amp is a monster and went away, still smiling.

It is so easy to make an old man happy *lol*

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:47 pm

Let me ask you how the Drive control works?
Is there two loud steps and two more quiet steps or do you set a mid-frequency that you boost with the Boost knob?
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

OliverKing
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Post by OliverKing » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:59 pm

Hello David,
these are my prefered settings:

Image


Maybe you like this combination too !?!? (minus the cabinet)


Image

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