PPC112 and CR120

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orangeadam
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PPC112 and CR120

Post by orangeadam » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:04 am

Hi I know this has been a topic discussed but I wan't to add a level of complexity to it that might not actually matter. I have a PPC112 and a micro dark but I am looking to upgrade the head for various reasons but of course the CR120 is way too many watts for the 112. However if I am running the head into a Torpedo Captor that is a 20db decrease output as an attenuator, how does this affect the 60 watt speakers ability to handle the CR120 or does it at all.

Rlw59
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Rlw59 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:02 pm

Attenuators work by turning some of the output power into heat -- they do lower the watts going to the speaker.

-3dB cuts the power in half.
-10dB is 1/10th the power.
-20dB is 1/100th the power.

But the CR120H has a clean output section -- the distortion comes from the preamp. So you can lower the output wattage simply by turning down the master volume, without really changing the tone.

Of course that's a little risky. Halfway on the master might be more or less than half power -- you never really know how close you're coming to blowing the speaker.

It might be cheaper to buy a second PPC112. Or replace the V30 with a higher power speaker.

But if you already have the Torpedo, or have some other use for it, sure that'll work. -3dB or more attenuation than that will be safe.

(Since the CR120H is rated for 120 watts into 8 ohms, it most likely puts out a lot less into 16 ohms -- I wish Orange would give more detailed specs on their solid state and hybrid offerings.)

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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Rlw59 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:10 pm

Ohhhhhhh.
I looked up the Torpedo Captor. It's only rated for 100 watts.

And it's fixed -20dB. That's a ton of attenuation. It should turn a 100 watt amp into a 1 watt amp.

But Torpedo's website talks about using the attenuated output on stage? Maybe for a worship band or a small coffeehouse. Drummer would have to have a light touch, or an electronic drum kit.

a.hun
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by a.hun » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:32 pm

That Torpedo Captor, like basically every other attenuator out there, is for use with valve amp output stages, not solid state ones!


Andy.
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Rlw59 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:32 am

a.hun wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:32 pm
That Torpedo Captor, like basically every other attenuator out there, is for use with valve amp output stages, not solid state ones!


Andy.
Oops. I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Attenuators with solid-state is as big a can of worms as impedance matching with tube amps. There are lots of different solid-state power amp designs, and lots of different attenuator designs. Often it's perfectly safe, but sometimes it's catastrophic. So attenuator manufacturers err on the side of caution and say "don't ever do it".

An EE with access to the schematics for both the CR120 and the Captor might be able to tell you if they're safe to use together.

But since that's unlikely to happen, Andy is right. Don't do it.

(Unless you can afford to blow up both the Orange and the Torpedo. If so, please make a video when you hook them up -- I'd love to see what happens.)

Jondog
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Jondog » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am

I think attenuators with solid state amps would be pontless anyways. Theres no power stage distortion to benefit from. The master volume would do a better job. Solid state power amps sound like crap when they clip.
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tolm
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by tolm » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:07 pm

The CR120 is a 120W rated SS amp. If that 120W is spec’d at 8ohm, wouldn’t a single 16ohm speaker cab draw 60W from it?

That’s the power handling for a V30 ... so I think it should work?
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Rlw59
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Rlw59 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:00 pm

tolm wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:07 pm
The CR120 is a 120W rated SS amp. If that 120W is spec’d at 8ohm, wouldn’t a single 16ohm speaker cab draw 60W from it?

That’s the power handling for a V30 ... so I think it should work?
That's why I wish Orange gave more detailed specs.

Usually yes, doubling the impedance cuts the power in half. But not always. The 120 watts into 8 ohms might be limited by a thermal cutoff, or by the power supply. If so, into 16 ohms it might put out more than half of 120 watts. Possibly something like 80 watts.

tolm
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by tolm » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:59 pm

Ah - I see, yeh, that’d be bad ... the manual just says “speakers must be rated at least the output power of the amplifier” so I guess they’re playing it safe.
2004 ORANGE AD30HTC Head + PPC212OB Cab | 2017 SUPRO S6420+ Thunderbolt Plus
2005 GIBSON Memphis ES-335 Dot Reissue w/Bigsby | 2017 PRS S2 Mira | 2017 EPIPHONE Joe Bonamassa Firebird I
2017 FENDER Mustang Bass

Nras613
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Nras613 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:03 pm

Dude, if you're interested in CR120 I wanna advise you to check the specifications first and then - try to find some information in the network. It helped me someday, maybe it will help you. Something like this resource https://musiety.com/a-complete-orange-cr120-review/.

Rozz
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Re: PPC112 and CR120

Post by Rozz » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:52 pm

As this fairly old thread has been resurrected, I thought I would add that while I use 2 PPC112's with my CR120, I did ask Orange ages ago about using one 16ohm cab and they said that the CR120 puts out about 90 watts. So be careful. I have used it with one, very judiciously, but not to be recommended really.
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