Phase when using two amps

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bfitz
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Phase when using two amps

Post by bfitz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:17 pm

Hi there!

I have been using 2 amps together with a small fender passive A/B/Y box that I got for a fairly reasonable amount of money. It works and thats fine but after a fair bit of reading and video watching I see that

amps with different amounts of gain stages in the amps themselves, will be out of phase with one another (odd number of gain stages versus even) and thus, if you want to correct that you need a phase inverter switch on your A/B/Y box, which

unfortunately, my cheap fender switcher does not have.

So my questions are the following.

Am I correct in suggesting that the Tiny Terror is equipped with 2 gain stages and the Rocker 30 is equipped with 3?

If I ran a boost pedal before the TT only, would that add a gain stage to the amp and fix my problem?

Is there a phase inverter pedal or any other way of doing this so i can run a bi-amp setup in phase?

B
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Jondog
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Jondog » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:27 pm

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Yes the Rocker has three and the TT has two. You can put a pedal in line to flip the phase, but it depends on the pedal, some are designed to maintain the phase direction.
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bfitz
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bfitz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:29 pm

Yeah I was looking at one of those...but I've been enduring a 'phase' of GAS lately so I may have to hold off for a bit

Im wondering would a boost pedal/delay/dirt pedal, add a gain stage to the TT in a passive sense. I.e. if the boost

was on all the time does that count as a gain stage? How could I tell if it flips the phase or not though?
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Jondog » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:13 pm

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bfitz
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bfitz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:40 pm

Thanks for that JonDog I have a few of those and am presuming the stereo out from the DD6 flips the phase too!

Thanks a mil dude!
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Orange AD30
Groove Tubes Soul-O 75
Orange PPC 212 OB
Boss Nextone 40
Fender CIJ Pink Paisley Tele
Fender Classic Player Strat 50s
Yamaha SA1200s
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Gibson SG Jnr

bclaire
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bclaire » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:36 pm

I found that when I used my Orange AD30TC with my Marshall 6101 that if I channel switched to solo channel that the Marshall flips phase while the Orange doesn't.

bfitz
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bfitz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:20 am

bclaire wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:36 pm
I found that when I used my Orange AD30TC with my Marshall 6101 that if I channel switched to solo channel that the Marshall flips phase while the Orange doesn't.
Is that because the Marshall has a different amount of gain stages in each channel? While the AD30 may not?

This is a minefield. I started reading that gearpage thread that Jondog posted and it gets extensive pretty quickly.

I had been using the SHO in front of the TT as an always on type of pedal and then had all my other effects before the ABY switch and things sounded fine

Though previously I had tried to ABY a TT and a Fender Blues Junior (without effects) and it was out of phase for sure. It sounded thin and the hum was really bad.

When i run the rig using the stereo outs from the DD6 - things seem to behave but Im gonna have to experiment a bit I think to find the optimum setup for my own rig

its more for fun than anything else but I'd love to gig with a stereo rig. The sound is massive
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bclaire » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:58 am

I don't know why it's like that. Not sure I understand the root causes - all I know is the results....


And yes, a stereo rig is pretty awesome-sounding. Check my signature pic!

Jondog
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Jondog » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:06 pm

bclaire wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:58 am
I don't know why it's like that. Not sure I understand the root causes - all I know is the results....


And yes, a stereo rig is pretty awesome-sounding. Check my signature pic!
Curiosity got to me and I had to check the schematic. That is quite a busy preamp section on that amp! From what I can tell it does have even vs odd gain stages from channel to channel, some switchable in and out on ch 2 and 3. Ch 3 uses a transistor stage.
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by fiveightandten » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:32 pm

Maybe I'm simplifying this too much, but couldn't you just reverse the absolute phase of one of your cabinets?
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Jondog
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Jondog » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:53 pm

fiveightandten wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:32 pm
Maybe I'm simplifying this too much, but couldn't you just reverse the absolute phase of one of your cabinets?
The speaker will work and will do what you're thinking it will do, but the physical action of the speaker wont be the same and you will lose frequencies because of that. Speaker won't perform as it should. I mistakingly wired one in reverse once. Thought the amp had a problem because it had no bass frequencies. Took me a while to sort out it was the speaker! Checked tubes, potentiometers, ground connections, solder joints, wires etc, etc...Pain in the ass to figure that one out! :lol:
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by fiveightandten » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:05 pm

Jondog wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:53 pm
The speaker will work and will do what you're thinking it will do, but the physical action of the speaker wont be the same and you will lose frequencies because of that. Speaker won't perform as it should. I mistakingly wired one in reverse once. Thought the amp had a problem because it had no bass frequencies. Took me a while to sort out it was the speaker! Checked tubes, potentiometers, ground connections, solder joints, wires etc, etc...Pain in the ass to figure that one out! :lol:
Agreed, and I've made that mistake as well in the past. Many people will swear it doesn't make a difference, but from my experience it does.

However, if the amps are out of phase from one another, that means one of them is pulling when it should be pushing. In this case, I'd think the absolute phase of that amp is "wrong" and can be corrected by reversing the speaker wiring. Maybe I'm off base here.
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'71 GRO100 || '96 OR-80 || AD30 || '64 AC-50 || AC-30TBX || Hiwatt DR504 || HI-TONE HT30
LP Standard || LP Studio || LP Custom Lite || Ric 620 || Ric 360 || MIA Tele || SG 61 RI

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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Jondog » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:15 pm

Experiment I guess
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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by Neiloler » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:50 pm

bfitz wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:20 am
bclaire wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:36 pm
I found that when I used my Orange AD30TC with my Marshall 6101 that if I channel switched to solo channel that the Marshall flips phase while the Orange doesn't.
I had been using the SHO in front of the TT as an always on type of pedal and then had all my other effects before the ABY switch and things sounded fine
That's what I was going to say, just use a simple SHO-style pedal (or something else with an odd number of gain stages) to get your flip-o-phase on. It's not always that easy, so having a phase-inverting pedal in the toolbox is good to know.

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Re: Phase when using two amps

Post by bclaire » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:12 am

The cabinet thing will not work because you would still end up with one channel out of phase....

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