*****Now, I`m not saying that everyone should go out `N` buy a set of groove tubes but I am saying that I`ve tested quite a few quartets that worked reliably/looked very good on test and sounded more than great and guess what... The current draw on each tube was quite different***
Ade-
I remember reading an article a while back by the designer of London Power amps (London of Ontario that is) on why he believes it unecessary to run matched sets, but his amps are pretty eccentric in their configuration.
AD140 Incredibly quiet
Moderator: bclaire
mmmmmm drop
Guthrie Matthews Method
http://www.guthriematthews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Modified Fender Custom Shop Jazz, Warmoth P/J clone,
Orange AD200 MkIII, Barefaced Compact
Guthrie Matthews Method
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Modified Fender Custom Shop Jazz, Warmoth P/J clone,
Orange AD200 MkIII, Barefaced Compact
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Ade Emsley
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:27 am
One of the points I`m trying to make is that someone can re-tube their amp with a quartet matched only on idle current draw (like most of them are) and the amp sounds OK, nothing special just OK, then they take it to a gig and one of the tubes shorts out for no apparent reason! This person has been very unlucky mainly because the tubes have only been tested for idle current draw and not been put through their paces in any other way by the company that matched them. On the other hand, a friend of mine has had his AD30TC for over 3 years,(gigged hard) still on the original output tubes and I had checked the amp over before he bought it and found that the tubes were all drawing slightly different idle current but this amp sounded better than just OK! Just to find out why, I changed the tubes for a quartet matched closely on current (but nothing else) and the killer tone this amp had before was now missing! I put the original tubes straight back in, no messing! Still sounds great! I guess these tubes were just a lucky match when it came down to guitar sounds and the A/C signal side of things!
Things are not always what they seem!
Things are not always what they seem!
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fiveightandten
- Orange Master
- Posts: 3845
- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:18 pm
- Location: Connecticut, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ade Emsley</i>
<br />One of the points I`m trying to make is that someone can re-tube their amp with a quartet matched only on idle current draw (like most of them are) and the amp sounds OK, nothing special just OK, then they take it to a gig and one of the tubes shorts out for no apparent reason! This person has been very unlucky mainly because the tubes have only been tested for idle current draw and not been put through their paces in any other way by the company that matched them. On the other hand, a friend of mine has had his AD30TC for over 3 years,(gigged hard) still on the original output tubes and I had checked the amp over before he bought it and found that the tubes were all drawing slightly different idle current but this amp sounded better than just OK! Just to find out why, I changed the tubes for a quartet matched closely on current (but nothing else) and the killer tone this amp had before was now missing! I put the original tubes straight back in, no messing! Still sounds great! I guess these tubes were just a lucky match when it came down to guitar sounds and the A/C signal side of things!
Things are not always what they seem!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We all like a little assymetry now and then, right?
I have a question or 2 for you Ade, if you don't mind...
How are your PCB layouts developed? Do you do them, use a computer program? Or is the PCB vendor responsible for that?
When delevoping prototypes, are you given a lot of leeway as far as what transformers and componenets are acceptable to use...or are you given a price point to meet, and you pick and choose based on that?
Just curious...if i'm not being too intrusive.
-Nick
<br />One of the points I`m trying to make is that someone can re-tube their amp with a quartet matched only on idle current draw (like most of them are) and the amp sounds OK, nothing special just OK, then they take it to a gig and one of the tubes shorts out for no apparent reason! This person has been very unlucky mainly because the tubes have only been tested for idle current draw and not been put through their paces in any other way by the company that matched them. On the other hand, a friend of mine has had his AD30TC for over 3 years,(gigged hard) still on the original output tubes and I had checked the amp over before he bought it and found that the tubes were all drawing slightly different idle current but this amp sounded better than just OK! Just to find out why, I changed the tubes for a quartet matched closely on current (but nothing else) and the killer tone this amp had before was now missing! I put the original tubes straight back in, no messing! Still sounds great! I guess these tubes were just a lucky match when it came down to guitar sounds and the A/C signal side of things!
Things are not always what they seem!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We all like a little assymetry now and then, right?
I have a question or 2 for you Ade, if you don't mind...
How are your PCB layouts developed? Do you do them, use a computer program? Or is the PCB vendor responsible for that?
When delevoping prototypes, are you given a lot of leeway as far as what transformers and componenets are acceptable to use...or are you given a price point to meet, and you pick and choose based on that?
Just curious...if i'm not being too intrusive.
-Nick
'71 GRO100 || '96 OR-80 || AD30 || '64 AC-50 || AC-30TBX || Hiwatt DR504 || HI-TONE HT30
LP Standard || LP Studio || LP Custom Lite || Ric 620 || Ric 360 || MIA Tele || SG 61 RI
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VintageJon
- Rocker
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:38 am
- Location: USA
As for un-matched pairs- they can sound good, but you have to have them close enough not to run the "high" on too hot or the "low" one too cold. Can be problematic, so I insist on 10% match for the tube I sell. (Industry Standard is 20% but I want more, so Tonecraft Standard
is 10%. 20% will probably work, but we go above-and-beyond. I want no doubts, no worries...)
Asymetry is built-in to the Orange pre-amp design. Also the "split load inverter" is asymetrical. Perfectly matched pairs perform best in Orange.
-Jon
is 10%. 20% will probably work, but we go above-and-beyond. I want no doubts, no worries...)
Asymetry is built-in to the Orange pre-amp design. Also the "split load inverter" is asymetrical. Perfectly matched pairs perform best in Orange.
-Jon
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Ade Emsley
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:27 am
Nick, to answer your questions, all production Orange tube amps start life as a point to point prototype!
Once I`ve worked out a concept for a circuit and solved all of the puzzles to do with that circuit, in my head, I`ll build a prototype from scratch. Once this is done I`ll spend a couple of weeks tweaking `N` fine tuning the design. When I`m happy with the way it works and sounds I`ll draw up the circuit diagram / chassis dimentions and rough artwork as to how it will look. I will then get a very good friend of mine to layout the P.C.B`s and marry them to the metalwork. When (and only when) I`m happy with the second P.C.B prototype, the model will be subject to a pre-production run of 10 or more to be built by the factory. Any teething problems get ironed out at this stage as most of these amps go straight out on the road and we tell the parties concerned to abuse the hell out of them!
I am now getting much more involved in our transformer design! Every currently made output transformer is interleaved to at least 5 sections (they used to be 3 sections). The core material is also the best you can get. This has made all of our tube amps much more robust and given them more tone and its gonna keep on getting better!
The transformer spec is always being improved at Orange as is many of our other components! As we grow as a company, our purchasing power gets stonger. This enables us to buy larger quantities built to a higher spec but for the same price as the last spec because of the quantity related price brake. This means that you guys get a better amp for the same money!8)
Ade
Once I`ve worked out a concept for a circuit and solved all of the puzzles to do with that circuit, in my head, I`ll build a prototype from scratch. Once this is done I`ll spend a couple of weeks tweaking `N` fine tuning the design. When I`m happy with the way it works and sounds I`ll draw up the circuit diagram / chassis dimentions and rough artwork as to how it will look. I will then get a very good friend of mine to layout the P.C.B`s and marry them to the metalwork. When (and only when) I`m happy with the second P.C.B prototype, the model will be subject to a pre-production run of 10 or more to be built by the factory. Any teething problems get ironed out at this stage as most of these amps go straight out on the road and we tell the parties concerned to abuse the hell out of them!
I am now getting much more involved in our transformer design! Every currently made output transformer is interleaved to at least 5 sections (they used to be 3 sections). The core material is also the best you can get. This has made all of our tube amps much more robust and given them more tone and its gonna keep on getting better!
The transformer spec is always being improved at Orange as is many of our other components! As we grow as a company, our purchasing power gets stonger. This enables us to buy larger quantities built to a higher spec but for the same price as the last spec because of the quantity related price brake. This means that you guys get a better amp for the same money!8)
Ade
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fiveightandten
- Orange Master
- Posts: 3845
- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:18 pm
- Location: Connecticut, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ade Emsley</i>
<br />Nick, to answer your questions, all production Orange tube amps start life as a point to point prototype!
Once I`ve worked out a concept for a circuit and solved all of the puzzles to do with that circuit, in my head, I`ll build a prototype from scratch. Once this is done I`ll spend a couple of weeks tweaking `N` fine tuning the design. When I`m happy with the way it works and sounds I`ll draw up the circuit diagram / chassis dimentions and rough artwork as to how it will look. I will then get a very good friend of mine to layout the P.C.B`s and marry them to the metalwork. When (and only when) I`m happy with the second P.C.B prototype, the model will be subject to a pre-production run of 10 or more to be built by the factory. Any teething problems get ironed out at this stage as most of these amps go straight out on the road and we tell the parties concerned to abuse the hell out of them!
I am now getting much more involved in our transformer design! Every currently made output transformer is interleaved to at least 5 sections (they used to be 3 sections). The core material is also the best you can get. This has made all of our tube amps much more robust and given them more tone and its gonna keep on getting better!
The transformer spec is always being improved at Orange as is many of our other components! As we grow as a company, our purchasing power gets stonger. This enables us to buy larger quantities built to a higher spec but for the same price as the last spec because of the quantity related price brake. This means that you guys get a better amp for the same money!8)
Ade
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks Ade. I'd imagine that you test amps out using Orange cabs...what guitars do you lean towards when you're tweaking an amp? If you don't mind me asking of course.
Just curious...it's not every day I get to pick the brain of the guy who designed these. Though admittedly, I don't own anything of yours. Though, if i'm not mistaken, you tweaked the late 70's OR circuit to come up with the OTR, no? I've tried your PI in my 90's OR-80...sounds good. As do the OTR's.
-Nick
<br />Nick, to answer your questions, all production Orange tube amps start life as a point to point prototype!
Once I`ve worked out a concept for a circuit and solved all of the puzzles to do with that circuit, in my head, I`ll build a prototype from scratch. Once this is done I`ll spend a couple of weeks tweaking `N` fine tuning the design. When I`m happy with the way it works and sounds I`ll draw up the circuit diagram / chassis dimentions and rough artwork as to how it will look. I will then get a very good friend of mine to layout the P.C.B`s and marry them to the metalwork. When (and only when) I`m happy with the second P.C.B prototype, the model will be subject to a pre-production run of 10 or more to be built by the factory. Any teething problems get ironed out at this stage as most of these amps go straight out on the road and we tell the parties concerned to abuse the hell out of them!
I am now getting much more involved in our transformer design! Every currently made output transformer is interleaved to at least 5 sections (they used to be 3 sections). The core material is also the best you can get. This has made all of our tube amps much more robust and given them more tone and its gonna keep on getting better!
The transformer spec is always being improved at Orange as is many of our other components! As we grow as a company, our purchasing power gets stonger. This enables us to buy larger quantities built to a higher spec but for the same price as the last spec because of the quantity related price brake. This means that you guys get a better amp for the same money!8)
Ade
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks Ade. I'd imagine that you test amps out using Orange cabs...what guitars do you lean towards when you're tweaking an amp? If you don't mind me asking of course.
Just curious...it's not every day I get to pick the brain of the guy who designed these. Though admittedly, I don't own anything of yours. Though, if i'm not mistaken, you tweaked the late 70's OR circuit to come up with the OTR, no? I've tried your PI in my 90's OR-80...sounds good. As do the OTR's.
-Nick
'71 GRO100 || '96 OR-80 || AD30 || '64 AC-50 || AC-30TBX || Hiwatt DR504 || HI-TONE HT30
LP Standard || LP Studio || LP Custom Lite || Ric 620 || Ric 360 || MIA Tele || SG 61 RI
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Ade Emsley
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:27 am
Yep! Two Orange 4/12s, one with new (virgin) V30s and the other with loose `N` worn in V30s. I try em one at a time to get an idea on how an amp will react in the two situations then both together to see what it sounds like running into 8 ohms. Guitars are LP standard with duncan pearly gates PU in bridge / standard US strat and DeArmond with coil taps!
OTR is Orange overdrive with 18 minor changes.
Ade
OTR is Orange overdrive with 18 minor changes.
Ade
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fiveightandten
- Orange Master
- Posts: 3845
- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:18 pm
- Location: Connecticut, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ade Emsley</i>
<br />Yep! Two Orange 4/12s, one with new (virgin) V30s and the other with loose `N` worn in V30s. I try em one at a time to get an idea on how an amp will react in the two situations then both together to see what it sounds like running into 8 ohms. Guitars are LP standard with duncan pearly gates PU in bridge / standard US strat and DeArmond with coil taps!
OTR is Orange overdrive with 18 minor changes.
Ade
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nice...BTW, Re: transformers. I saw that you guys started putting Mercury Magnetics iron in the RV100. Those aren't cheap!
Oh, and before I stop bugging you...I read a review of the RV100 that stated the tone stack for the clean channel was derived from the Vox AC-50 (which is more or less the same pre-amp as the AC-30 anyways, save for the front end and a few small changes)...is there any validity to that?
Just curious, I have an AC-50 and I think it's a fantasic sounding amp...probably my favorite of all time.
-Nick
<br />Yep! Two Orange 4/12s, one with new (virgin) V30s and the other with loose `N` worn in V30s. I try em one at a time to get an idea on how an amp will react in the two situations then both together to see what it sounds like running into 8 ohms. Guitars are LP standard with duncan pearly gates PU in bridge / standard US strat and DeArmond with coil taps!
OTR is Orange overdrive with 18 minor changes.
Ade
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nice...BTW, Re: transformers. I saw that you guys started putting Mercury Magnetics iron in the RV100. Those aren't cheap!
Oh, and before I stop bugging you...I read a review of the RV100 that stated the tone stack for the clean channel was derived from the Vox AC-50 (which is more or less the same pre-amp as the AC-30 anyways, save for the front end and a few small changes)...is there any validity to that?
Just curious, I have an AC-50 and I think it's a fantasic sounding amp...probably my favorite of all time.
-Nick
'71 GRO100 || '96 OR-80 || AD30 || '64 AC-50 || AC-30TBX || Hiwatt DR504 || HI-TONE HT30
LP Standard || LP Studio || LP Custom Lite || Ric 620 || Ric 360 || MIA Tele || SG 61 RI
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timboardman
- Orange Expert
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