Orange Hustler amp

Orange Amps Technical Q&A's

Moderator: bclaire

Post Reply
rychehed
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:39 am

Orange Hustler amp

Post by rychehed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:52 am

Hi guys, im new to this forum! i have an Orange Hustler tube amp from around 1979 - i was wondering if some of you tech guys could tell me some advice?...im a bit of a noob too lol...

The amp has two jacks on the back saying `Speaker 1` and `Speaker 2`...the amps own speaker cord has always been plugged into `Speaker 1`but i was wondering if i could just disconnect this cord and plug my Marshall cab external speaker in instead?...

Would this work without blowing anything in my amp or the speaker?...

Also, another question, if you look at the attached link of the ohm knob, how can this be switched to a different setting because ive tried twisting it but wont budge?...

Pictures here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 338&type=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Cheers,


Gary

RickenBangler
Orange Hero
Posts: 381
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Alderney, Channel Islands
Contact:

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by RickenBangler » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:57 pm

Hustler eh... Nice! Welcome to the forum.
rychehed wrote:wondering if i could just disconnect this cord and plug my Marshall cab external speaker in instead?...
Don't see why not - as long as the impedance is correct!
rychehed wrote:the ohm knob, how can this be switched to a different setting because ive tried twisting it but wont budge?...
Not certain but it could be a 'pull out' type. Pull it out and re-insert with the arrow pointing at the appropriate ohmage.

I expect others will chime in with more concise information - I believe we have a couple of Hustler owners on the forum.
CR60C+PPC112 Mini Stack
Rickenbacker 620/6 JetGlo | G&L Fallout | Fender P-Bass
MarkBass Micromark 801
Past Orange Relationships Micro Crush | Crush CR35LDX | Tiny Terror | OR15/PPC112

The Provocateurs Bandcamp

rychehed
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:39 am

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by rychehed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:00 pm

RickenBangler wrote:Hustler eh... Nice! Welcome to the forum.
rychehed wrote:wondering if i could just disconnect this cord and plug my Marshall cab external speaker in instead?...
Don't see why not - as long as the impedance is correct!
rychehed wrote:the ohm knob, how can this be switched to a different setting because ive tried twisting it but wont budge?...
Not certain but it could be a 'pull out' type. Pull it out and re-insert with the arrow pointing at the appropriate ohmage.

I expect others will chime in with more concise information - I believe we have a couple of Hustler owners on the forum.

I forgot to add that the amp i have is NOT an amp head, its a combo 1x12 - is it still ok to plug this Marshall cab i have into the jacks marked `Speaker 1 and 2`???

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9764
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by a.hun » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:26 pm

Nice amp rychehed! 8)

It is a pull out type, yes.

You'll need to select the correct impedance for your cab. Do you know what that is? (Probably 16 ohms stock.)

I see the amp impedance selector is set at 4 ohms though. Is this correct for that speaker in the combo? The impedance should be marked on the speaker itself. If it is a 16 ohm speaker that is a dangerous impedance mismatch!!!

If you want to run both the combo's internal speaker and the Marshall cab at the same time they need to be 16 ohms each. If so you'd simply plug both in and set the amp to 8 ohms. The two outputs are linked in parallel, and two 16 ohm loads in parallel = 8 ohms total. For running either one reset the ipedance selector to the correct impedance for that speaker.

Only other thing to be careful of is power handling. That is a 100W Marshall cab so if your Hustler is the 2 x EL34 version that'll be fine.

Good to go?


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

rychehed
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:39 am

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by rychehed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:07 pm

a.hun wrote:Nice amp rychehed! 8)

It is a pull out type, yes.

You'll need to select the correct impedance for your cab. Do you know what that is? (Probably 16 ohms stock.)

I see the amp impedance selector is set at 4 ohms though. Is this correct for that speaker in the combo? The impedance should be marked on the speaker itself. If it is a 16 ohm speaker that is a dangerous impedance mismatch!!!

If you want to run both the combo's internal speaker and the Marshall cab at the same time they need to be 16 ohms each. If so you'd simply plug both in and set the amp to 8 ohms. The two outputs are linked in parallel, and two 16 ohm loads in parallel = 8 ohms total. For running either one reset the ipedance selector to the correct impedance for that speaker.

Only other thing to be careful of is power handling. That is a 100W Marshall cab so if your Hustler is the 2 x EL34 version that'll be fine.

Good to go?


Andy.

Thanks Andy, much appreciated! you have explained it much more detailed and easier to absorb then others!! the amp has been set to 4 ohms ever since ive had it - i will try out the different combinations of running both speaker and cab too and see what i like best...this amp hasnt really been used a whole lot since the earlys 80s so the tubes are still good too - anyone else here have a 1x12 Hustler combo you know of?...

Ps. It is a great sounding amp, clean with lots of headroom, takes pedals very well and the master vol overdrive is very fuzzy 70s sounding!

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9764
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by a.hun » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:13 pm

rychehed wrote:Thanks Andy, much appreciated! you have explained it much more detailed and easier to absorb then others!! the amp has been set to 4 ohms ever since ive had it - i will try out the different combinations of running both speaker and cab too and see what i like best...this amp hasnt really been used a whole lot since the earlys 80s so the tubes are still good too - anyone else here have a 1x12 Hustler combo you know of?...

Ps. It is a great sounding amp, clean with lots of headroom, takes pedals very well and the master vol overdrive is very fuzzy 70s sounding!
Yes, but is that the correct setting for that speaker? (What does it say on the speaker itself?) If not you have been running a serious high direction mismatch, the more dangerous direction for the output transformer of any valve amp.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=222589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... ostcount=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Impedances are important with valve amps and ignoring them can lead to expensive damage. Would hate for that nice amp of yours to fry.


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

rychehed
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:39 am

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by rychehed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:14 pm

a.hun wrote:
rychehed wrote:Thanks Andy, much appreciated! you have explained it much more detailed and easier to absorb then others!! the amp has been set to 4 ohms ever since ive had it - i will try out the different combinations of running both speaker and cab too and see what i like best...this amp hasnt really been used a whole lot since the earlys 80s so the tubes are still good too - anyone else here have a 1x12 Hustler combo you know of?...

Ps. It is a great sounding amp, clean with lots of headroom, takes pedals very well and the master vol overdrive is very fuzzy 70s sounding!
Yes, but is that the correct setting for that speaker? (What does it say on the speaker itself?) If not you have been running a serious high direction mismatch, the more dangerous direction for the output transformer of any valve amp.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=222589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... ostcount=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Impedances are important with valve amps and ignoring them can lead to expensive damage. Would hate for that nice amp of yours to fry.


Andy.

Ive looked inside, and there is no marking of Ohm rating at all on the speaker just the words G12K-85 Celestion...like i said it was set to 4 Ohms when i bought it and ive been running it like that all this time - ive had no trouble and its sounded fine, ive also had no pops, crackles and bangs yet...

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9764
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by a.hun » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:02 am

Then I'd find someone with a multimeter to check the DC resistance of the speaker. The DCR will usually be a bit lower than the rated impedance, somewhere about ~75% of the impedance value. But at least it'll let you know. (Though before that check the speaker again carefully. Often the impedance is printed on one leg of the metal frame or on the back of the paper cone itself. Celestions will normally have it marked somewhere.)

If you can't find the impedance marked I'd definitely have it checked, and definitely don't combine speaker loads until you know exactly what that speakers impedance really is.

The reason that impedances are so important with valve amps is that they are designed to run into a correctly impedance matched speaker load. They are different from solid state amps in that way and this is why you have a choice of impedances on the back of valve amps - to let you select the correct one. If you impedance mismatch you'll always lose some amp power, change the tone, but more importantly you'll always risk potential valve or amp damage. The more severe the impedance mismatch and the harder you drive the amp the greater the danger of damage will be. Most valve amps will survive a mismatch in the range half to double the correct matching impedance, but going outwith that range (eg the potential 4X high mismatch you may be running) really is asking for trouble - big time!

VALVE AMPS HAVE IMPEDANCE MATCHING SPEAKER OUTPUTS!!!

The fact that you have had no problems so far doesn't mean everything is okay to just carry on. It may be but a 4 ohm speaker would be a fairly unusual replacement choice in that amp. And if it is a 16 ohm speaker you are running a very real risk of sudden (no warning) terminal (no cure) damage to the output transformer - the very heart of your amp. If it happens it is already too late and the chances of finding a perfect replacement transformer for that amp aren't high. (= One Hustler which'll never sound the same again.)

If I had to use an unknown impedance speaker myself I'd run the amp on 8 ohms. At least that would be safe-ish for both 4 and 16 ohm loads too. I'd absolutely NEVER run it on 4 ohms as the potential 4x high direction mismatch is in the more dangerous direction. However many people have strange (wrong!) ideas about impedances, and relying on what others may have set is just playing Russian Roulette with your amp.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... ostcount=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its your amp though. I'm done lecturing you on impedances...


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

bassdrop
Orange Master
Posts: 2416
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by bassdrop » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:21 pm

+1000 Get someone handy with a multimeter to figure out the resistance of your current speaker. A failure of the output transformer is a $200-400 part and it may well take other components like your speaker or tubes with it. As Andy said, even assuming you can get it repaired the amp will likely never sound the same again.
mmmmmm drop

Guthrie Matthews Method
http://www.guthriematthews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Modified Fender Custom Shop Jazz, Warmoth P/J clone,
Orange AD200 MkIII, Barefaced Compact

rychehed
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:39 am

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by rychehed » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 pm

bassdrop wrote:+1000 Get someone handy with a multimeter to figure out the resistance of your current speaker. A failure of the output transformer is a $200-400 part and it may well take other components like your speaker or tubes with it. As Andy said, even assuming you can get it repaired the amp will likely never sound the same again.

Everythings OK now, i actually took the amp apart and looked at the speaker - it does actually have a very small smudged ink stamp of 8 Ohms, ive now set the amp to 8 to match it...

Ps. Thanks to Andy and everyone else for the advice, much appeciated...

bassdrop
Orange Master
Posts: 2416
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by bassdrop » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:46 am

It actually runs your tubes harder under an impedance mismatch if the transformer is beefy enough to handle it, so especially if your amp still has the original Mullards, they'll last a bit longer now.
mmmmmm drop

Guthrie Matthews Method
http://www.guthriematthews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Modified Fender Custom Shop Jazz, Warmoth P/J clone,
Orange AD200 MkIII, Barefaced Compact

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9764
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by a.hun » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm

bassdrop wrote:It actually runs your tubes harder under an impedance mismatch if the transformer is beefy enough to handle it, so especially if your amp still has the original Mullards, they'll last a bit longer now.
Thats true for a low direction mismatch, ie 8 ohm amp into 4 ohm speaker. Not true the other way around though, and rychehed has been running a high direction mismatch - 4 ohm amp output into 8 ohm speaker. Probably the only reason he didn't have real serious problems was that the replacement fitted wasn't a 16 ohm speaker. (Lucky there!) With high direction mismatches the main risk isn't higher valve wear but serious transformer damage.

Anyway, point is that high and low direction mismatches aren't the same at all. Low is harder on the valves but rather less dangerous for the amp itself, in the short term anyway. Going high, if damage happens it usually tends to be sudden and expensive. If it doesn't happen the amp will usually be 100% fine. You don't usually have 'partial' damage, it tends to be all or nothing.
John Phillips (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=622612&postcount=6 wrote:Here are the basic rules:

With tube amps, you can mismatch, in almost all cases by a factor of two in either direction (ie between half and double the correct impedance). There are a few exceptions I wouldn't try it with, and I'm not sure I would with a vintage amp run at very high power either.

It's usually safer to use too low an impedance (eg 16-ohm amp into 8-ohm cab), since the risk to tube amps comes not so much from drawing too much current, as from the 'flyback' voltages generated in the output transformer - that's also why you must never run a tube amp with no load connected to it. Running into a lower-impedance load is harder on the power tubes, and will reduce their life, but won't fry them immediately.

Smaller mismatches are correspondingly safer, eg the 'odd' impedances you get if you mix loads. It's always better to match though IMO. You get the most power, best reliability, and IMO best tone - although some people do like a mismatch, so that bit is down to taste.

With solid-state amps (which almost never have an OT), the rules are very different. Here, the impedance requirement is a minimum not a match, because the current is drawn directly from the output transistors, not via a transformer, and too much will fry them - much more quickly and completely than with tubes, too. So you must never connect a SS amp to too low an impedance. Conversely, it's usually entirely safe to run any impedance above the minimum, and even no load at all.

This can be a source of confusion to people who have been trained on one type of technology or the other!
More detailed explaination on the exact differences between low and high direction mismatches with valve amps:
John Phillips (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=2206824&postcount=6 wrote:No, rockon - you were right the first time! Driving too high an impedance is potentially dangerous to a tube amp, driving too low an impedance isn't, usually.

willhutch - yes, driving too low an impedance does try to draw more current. But it also reduces the power developed in a tube amp, because the transformer is a matching component, and the whole system becomes less efficient as you move away from matching, in either direction. The result is that although the current does rise, it's not by much and is within what the transformer will take, usually. It does put more stress on the tubes though, since they are working into too low an impedance. Going too low (usually below about half) does sometimes stress them to the point they may fail.

(With a solid-state amp, which does not have an output transformer, there is no 'matching', and nothing to stop more current being drawn through the output transistors as the power output then rises, which will then blow them - so solid-state amps have a minimum impedance, which you must not go below.)

Driving too high an impedance is dangerous for a tube amp because too little current is drawn. Since the power is still being generated by the tubes, the transformer is being fed electrical energy, and it has to go somewhere. Since power is the product of voltage and current, if the current is too small the voltage is then too large. Also, it's driving a speaker, which is a reactive load which "pushes and pulls" current and will actually produce something called a 'flyback' voltage which is also dependent on its impedance - the higher it is, the higher the voltages developed on the output side of the OT. But transfomers work equally both ways round... so the high voltages on the output side then produce even higher ones on the input side, which if high enough can exceed the insulation rating of the winding in the transformer, and cause arcing - which will burn out the transformer. If the wire insulation is strong enough, the arc may occur somewhere else - typically in the power tubes or their sockets, which are the next weakest links. Typically, running into over double the correct impedance is enough to be in the danger area.

(Similarly, since a solid-state amp does not have an OT, there is no 'step up' of either the amp's own or the speaker's flyback voltages, and no problems will occur - a solid-state amp will almost always be fine with any load above the minimum impedance, no matter how high - all that happens is that the power output falls.)


Those who know enough about electrical theory may say that's a bit too simplistic, but I think it's reasonably close!
Just so you know! :wink:


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

bassdrop
Orange Master
Posts: 2416
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: Orange Hustler amp

Post by bassdrop » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:21 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Andy. I always assumed a mismatch in either direction was harder on the tubes. I think you and John Phillips should write a tube amps for dummies book!
mmmmmm drop

Guthrie Matthews Method
http://www.guthriematthews.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Modified Fender Custom Shop Jazz, Warmoth P/J clone,
Orange AD200 MkIII, Barefaced Compact

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests