Speakers for a PPC212 closed back?

[baytamusic]

I'm with ya. I can't stand V30s. I use 70s g12m, two 75hz and two 55hz in an old 70s Marshall cab. They definitely have less annoying treble than the V30s and I agree that they just sound more "rock".

[baytamusic]

I use them with a Rocker 30 head. I have no problems with low end response, but I don't tune down or play metal and I also have a quad of them. The g12m are only rated at 25w so a pair won't be sufficient for a 50w amp. Even a pair of 30w G12h probably wouldn't really do it. You could look into Scumbacks as they make higher wattage versions of the M and H Pre-Rola style speakers. I have no experience with the heritage line of Celestions so I can't comment on that. The deal with the older speakers is that they used a different material for the cones so that's why they sound different than the newer ones. Pre-Rola being the most desirable. Personally I would have no issues using the new Chinese Celestions, it's just that I figured $500 for a quad of older Rola Celestions wasn't too steep, so why not just get the vintage ones?! You just need to educate yourself a little about cone codes before buying vintage speakers as you don't want recones. They'll be the same as newer ones if they have been reconed in the last 30 years or so.

Another speaker you may want to look into are the g12-65. I've never used them but tons of people love those speakers. I'm not sure if they would work with an Orange or not.

[Randy Bass]

You'd need to know whether the volume pot(s) are linear or logarithmic in order to even have a rough idea of the relationship between knob position and actual output, but it still is not nearly as precise as you would like. A 50-watt valve amp will usually have an actual maximum output well over 60 watts, so there's another thing to consider. All you can really do is keep your fingers crossed and listen for any unpleasant speaker distortion.

I'd be looking into the Eminence Private Jack for a higher-wattage Greenback variant, though it is less pronounced in the upper mids than the G12M.

[nlimbaugh]

The 97db's of many greenback types might also account for less ear fatigue. They soak up more juice (or some other efficiency mumbo jumbo) and just aren't as loud as the 100db's from a v30. I'm turning up louder than ever with my 2x12 loaded with 97db greenback style speakers and have been very happy with my hearing situation.

[Randy Bass]

The 97db's of many greenback types might also account for less ear fatigue. They soak up more juice (or some other efficiency mumbo jumbo) and just aren't as loud as the 100db's from a v30. I'm turning up louder than ever with my 2x12 loaded with 97db greenback style speakers and have been very happy with my hearing situation.

This is a good point - the Vintage 30 is a ridiculously loud speaker when you consider its' efficiency and prominent upper midrange. You tend to feel G12M-type speakers as much as you hear them. They are as far from the harshness of the V30 as you can get.

[MadHendrix]

I like many people for years used the V30s because thats what came in my cabs. Thats what the manufactures told me sounded good.. A few years ago I really started searching for tones with not much luck till I did some reading about speakers and how they are the most over looked part of most peoples rigs. Sense then I have been through just about every speaker and every combination out there and settled happy open the G12H-30 and the G12M greenback. They just sound better than anything Iv tried. I have 4 G12h-30s in my Mesa Recto cab and it brings a life to my Dual recto that most people wouldn't think you could get. I have a G12H-30 and a G12M in my Orange PPC212 that I use with my Dual Terror and Ill tell you what it is the sound of rock and roll. Everything I was looking for I found in those speakers.

So all that being said here is what I have learned over the years of testing speakers. With regards to Celestion the Chinese vs UK made thing people make to big of a deal over. They all sound great. I have found that the UK made speakers always sound a little darker. The Heritage speakers are great.. But way darker than the Vintage series (made in china) and you can only solder them.. So unless your good with the gun one install. And a point that I have always tried to remember is that just because people say that a speaker is only good for "this" music dont believe it .. That might be the sound you have been looking for. You just have to try.

Good luck on your search man
Matt

[a.hun]

One thing though is I'd like to retain some of the tight low end response I get with the V30s and I'm concerened both the heratige G12M and G12H may have a flubby low end.

They are supposed to sound amazing with Marshalls but does anyone have any experience of these speakers with an Orange head?

Hi Dannyboy.

Yep. I really like G12H-30s with Oranges. Have tried them with my OR120 and Rocker 30 and they remain my favourite all round rock speakers for both clean and drive sounds with them. Both do have a fuller (ie. less tight) bass end than the V.30s though, especially the 55Hz Heritage ones. They are far from 'flabby' though, simply fuller sounding to different degrees, something you can easily dial out with a little bass reduction from the amp. Sounds like you'd probably be better off with the standard Anniversary ones on that count. The G12H-30s also have a somewhat more extended treble than the V.30 IMO. To be honest that doesn't come over as piercing with Oranges (as they can with some other amps) due to the darkish Orange voicing. Fine rich sounding but very articulate speakers.

G12Ms are much more middy with less lows and highs, and they break up at much lower power levels. (CONE BREAKUP.) More the sound of classic '60s rock, rather cotton wooly / fuzzy compared to the bigger fuller '70s rock sounding G12H.

Tonally the G12-65 sounds very much like the G12M-25 except for being tighter and much slower to break up. It may or may not be what you want, but as I say these style of speakers are much more midrange focused with less lows and highs than most other types. I'd say if the main thing you dislike about the V.30 is the upper mid peakiness you'd be way better off with the G12H-30 which is ball park similar but way less peaky in the upper mids.

Power handling wise you should be totally fine with a pair of 30W Celestions with your TV.50. They'll take the full ranked output of all but the most conservatively rated 50 watters no problem at all. Celestion (unlike most other speaker manufacturers) always tend to rate their speakers conservatively enough that their speakers of a certain rating will handle an amp of the same (clean) power rating when fully cranked. Only really a problem if you are talking about some particularly fiery vintage amps with particularly strong old valves (eg old Marshalls / Hiwatts and a few others) which would put out much more power clean than their clean power ratings suggested.

Interesting comparison on the various speakers you are considering (and others) here:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=86938" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope that helps more than it confuses!


Andy.


Andy.

[a.hun]

Just to clarify Andy, when you talk about the G12H30s, are you refering to the 70th Anniversaries, or the Heritage 55hz models?

Both!

The only real difference (as I said above) is that the Heritage version has a fuller bass response. It is a 'reissue' of the 55Hz resonance bass version G12H. The 70th Anniversary version is the modern recreation of the standard 75Hz resonance guitar version of the same speaker

If you prefer a tighter bass end you'd probably be better with the standard 'Anniversary' ones. Their bass response, while noticably fuller than the pretty bass tight V.30s, is not as big as the 55Hz H-30s.


Andy.

[baytamusic]

You may even consider one 55hz and one 75hz. I use two of each of the M variety and I think the balance is nice.

[a.hun]

Actually, I do prefer a 'full' low end... but when I say 'tight' I suppose I mean not loose and flubby like the regular 25watt greenback can get. Some players really like that loose low end and it can work well in a 4x12 for that late 60s blues/rock tone, but as soon as you start adding more gain and get into proper hard/heavy rock territory I think the regular greenback starts to suffer....

So, what I really want from the Heritage 55hz is a solid and stable low end with a full but not too bright midrange, and a nice top end sparkle! ...what do you think, will the 55hz deliver?

Also I found this article reviewing both the heritage M & H which is really helpful.... http://www.legendarytones.com/celestiong12m.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah I'd pretty much go along with what they said in that article.

'Tight' bass is a tricky term, but to me it means present but punchy / very controlled bass. Opposite would been loose 'flabby' bass. That isn't quite the same as 'full' bass but full and tight together is a bit of a holy grail. Actually that depends as much on the amp as much as the speaker as some amps have much tighter control on the bass dynamics than others (terms like feedback, resonace / damping controls).

But yeah if you like a solid bass etc as above then the 55Hz 'H' is the biz. I have one original '70s driver and it is my favourite of all! Mixing one with a 75Hz Anniversary is indeed a very good option as you'll get the benefit of some extra richness from using non identical speakers. Might also prevent things getting too 'full' in the bass.


Andy.

[jerem37]

I'd say if the main thing you dislike about the V.30 is the upper mid peakiness you'd be way better off with the G12H-30 which is ball park similar but way less peaky in the upper mids.

Hi all,

i think i'm in the good place to explain what i'm looking for

I've a Rocker 30H with a PPC212 closed back, and i think i'm a bit bored with my V30.
It's not bad speakers, they sounded great with this Rocker when it was running with chinese preamp tubes that lack of mids and treble, but now i'm running with really good NOS tubes (like mullard or philips herleen I63, I65, RFT ECC83, GE 12AX7 LongPlate) i think i always lack something in my sound, and the upper mids are now too proeminent (and i don't want to go back with chinese tubes!!!!!).

I play with what i can qualify as "bright" guitars, in fact, guitars that already have a very open sound with good mids and treble (big apple deluxe ash strat with duncan 59' and pearly gates humbuckers, Les Paul Special VOS TVY with Lollar P90).

So, as some people told me that what i tend to feel always lacking in my sound i'll never find it with just tubes swapping (as i've already run with very good tubes), i'm looking for speaker replacement.

I play my Rocker 30 both clean and dirty (50/50 for the songs played in my band) and i really like its deep and warm clean, very natural, even if it's lacking a bit of headroom sometimes, depending to pickups output.
I'm looking for blues-rock-hard 70's sounds, like ZZ Top, ACDC, Deep Purple, Led Zep, Hendrix, Santana etc etc.

I think it's something between Greenbacks and G12H that i need, but as i play a lot of clean i need high sensitivity speakers (same level of the V30, 100dB), so i can't use greenback as they are weaker and 'll break up earlier, as Andy mentionned.

So, i was looking the G12H30, but i'm a bit lost between the 75Hz classic series "70th anniv", the 75Hz heritage "lead cone" and the 55Hz heritage "bass cone".
I precise i don't want more treble and high end than the V30 (as i already tame a bit the trebles, at 10 o-clock'), i just want less of peaky high mids, more "fatter mids", more low mids and maybe bass but still with a very open sound, not a darker or "boxy" sound. A more really vintage sound, more 70's than the V30 (which is not so vintage sounding i think), with sweet and rounded high end.

I'm ok to buy the more expensive Heritage series if necessary but i need to make the good choice at the 1st time, and i'm afraid that the 75Hz heritage lead cone is the same that the 70th anniv, just more expensive and with "made in england" written above.
So, i think the 55Hz version is really more different than the V30 in comparison to the other 75Hz versions, but i'm afraid with the resonating bass in the PPC212 closed that have already a deep sound due to its building quality (and it's rated at 97 or 98dB on Celestion web site, instead of 100dB for the 75Hz version...)
I also thought about the Celestion alnico Gold, but i don't know how it can sound in comparison to V30, and i don't find a lot of samples to have an idea...

So, if i can have some help to make the good choice and-or explain me in a PPC 212 CB how it can or will sound, it'll help me a lot.
Thanks and sorry for the long post

[Randy Bass]

Not to confuse things, but you might also consider the Classic Lead 80 for a more balanced sound than the Vintage 30. A mix of one V30 and one CL80 might give you the subtle improvement you want without totally changing the sound of your setup. It's always hard to get it right the first time when buying speakers that you can't try out first, so you might as well start by only swapping one speaker.

[a.hun]

It is tricky to get things exactly right with choosing new speakers. From what you are saying I'd say that any of the 3 current G12-H variants would do you fine. (As long as you are using two that is - a single one might well be pushed beyond its limits!)

There is nothing at all wrong with the 'standard' 70th Anniversary ones. The Heritage 75Hz one is new and I haven't heard any feedback on it at all yet. It'll be a lot more expensive though. The Heritage 55Hz ones are great, but even the standard ones have a good dollop more low end than the V.30s and while the mids are nice and rich they don't have the V.30s peaky upper mids. I'd suggest just getting the standard H-30s myself. They sound outstanding (to my ears) with amps like the R.30.

The CL80 is fairly similar tonally and would also be a good choice. 1dB lower sensitivity is going to be virtually unnoticable.

The only trouble with mixing different speaker types (something I like doing when I can) is that the results can be hard to predict, and not give much idea of how either speaker actually sounds on its own either. For example while I don't like the G12T-75 alone, (with Oranges I mean), they can make a surprisingly good mix in a cab with a V.30 to add lows and highs without adding much to the midrange. Unexpected but also a possibility...
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=131643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See what I mean though - choosing speakers really isn't all that easy, especially when mixing them. Honestly, your best bet might well simply be two standard G12H-30s, which won't cost the earth either, especially if you sell the V.30s on.


Andy.

[jax510]

I have the tiny terror combo and an orange ppc 212ob with Vintage 30's and I prefer the G12H30 that comes in the tiny terror combo if I have to pick just one speaker type. It sounds better (fuller? less mid rangey and with the sound more spread out across the bass to trebleness would be how I would describe it I suppose.) I am clueless as to what you may need in the technical aspect, but the sound part I can tell you I prefer the G12H. All of them stacked together is my favorite though

[Woodsie]

I have a spare G12h 30 anni laying around. I might just throw it in my orange 212 cab to see if it plays nicely with a V30.