Speakers for a PPC212 closed back?

[jerem37]

Hi all,

sorry to reply so lately, and thanks for all the answers.
The CL80 has reputation to be too "flat" for me, i'd prefer a speaker with some sounding signature like G12M, G12H (or i prefer keep the V30 if i don't find the good ones ).

In fact, i don't really want to mix speaker in PPC212 like Andy "guessed" : a X mix or a H (side by side and above) mix is very good and often used in a 4*12 box, but i think (maybe wrong i assume) it's not so easy to balance in a 2*12, and to be sure that the sound will be balanced everywhere you stand when you play, especially if the 2 speakers have a lot of personality (you can hear more the left one if you stand left to the box, and more the right one if you stay right maybe...).

So, after listening some YT clips etc, i find that the one i prefer is the Greenback G12M heritage for the smooth, fat and creamy sound, without harsh trebles, even if they just lack of a little bit of deep and round bass and bottom end.
BUT they only are less than 100dB, and as i said, i need high sensitivity, so i can't put 2 G12M as i'll lose some volume on the natural channel and will break it up earlier...

The perfect one (still according to soundclips etc) will be an in-between of the G12M and G12H
I've mail Celestion just to be sure of the sensitivity of the 3 G12H (heritage bass cone 55c/s, new 2011 heritage lead cone 75c/s, and the 70th anniv) and i can tell that they're all 100dB, even if on their website the 55c/s is rated at 98dB (they told me it's a mistake).
What's missing is, like Andy told, a real comparison between heritage 55Hz and the new 75Hz, juste to know the difference in term of deepness of bottom end and "harshness" of the treble side
It's not easy as i found some reviews that the 75Hz are smoother on the high end than the 55Hz (that is not so evident, i think everyone will have thought the contrary, so hard to be sure...).
I only consider Heritage for the moment because i don't want to have to wait for the breaking-in period like it's necessary with the 70th anniv (that i found some reviews mentioning it can sound harsh at the beginning), because heritage have the reputation to have the same sound when you get them and after a lot of running time, and finally again because it's (in theory) the sound of the pre-rola and rola ones.
Where Andy is right is that 70anniv are cheaper, and it can really be a good thing just to make a trial with one, series-linked with a V30 in the PPC212

Finally, i can just tell that if i'll have to make my choice now, i think i'll choose heritage 75Hz lead cone just to be sure to have quite a controlled bottom, but it's maybe just a "foreseen" (and maybe wrong?) idea...

What do you think about that dudes

[a.hun]

Hi all,

sorry to reply so lately, and thanks for all the answers.
The CL80 has reputation to be too "flat" for me, i'd prefer a speaker with some sounding signature like G12M, G12H (or i prefer keep the V30 if i don't find the good ones ).

Not my experience with the CL80. I'd say it is the closest tonally in the Celestion range to the G12H30. Good sounding speaker and not lacking charater IMO.
Another great (maybe better!) choice is the Mesa / Celestion MC90. That is again ballpark similar tonally, and VERY loud. More expensive but I'm seriously thinking of replacing the V.30 in my R.30C with one of those...

In fact, i don't really want to mix speaker in PPC212 like Andy "guessed" : a X mix or a H (side by side and above) mix is very good and often used in a 4*12 box, but i think (maybe wrong i assume) it's not so easy to balance in a 2*12, and to be sure that the sound will be balanced everywhere you stand when you play, especially if the 2 speakers have a lot of personality (you can hear more the left one if you stand left to the box, and more the right one if you stay right maybe...).

I think the main problem with horizontal 2x12 cabs is that the speakers interact in such a way that the sound spread is good vertically (floor to ceiling) but very restricted horizontally (across the audience left to right.) Easy solution is to put the 2x12 cab on its side - really works! I have a vertical 2x12 bass cab which has awesome spread.

FWIW because these interactions work in both directions with 4 speaker cabs they always have relatively poor sound spread both horizontally and vertically. And there ain't much you can do about it - 4x10 and 4x12 cabs are 'beamers'.

As to mixing two different speakers in a 2x12, some combinations work better than others. I mentioned one (G12T-75 and V.30) which you might not think would work but can. Another is actually a G12M beside a G12H. You'd think that the 100dB 'H' would drown out the 98dB 'M' but that really isn't the case. The M being mainly midrangy pushes out its strongest frequencies (where our ears are also most sensitive) pretty well and you'd not notice a lot of volume difference between them. Tonally they compliment each other pretty well too. Where adding a G12T75 to a G12H (or V.30) will mainly add to the top and bottom frequencies and do little to the overall midrange, adding a G12M to a G12H will do much the opposite, mainly adding to the mids without reinforcing the top / bottom frequencies. Might suit you well.

So, after listening some YT clips etc, i find that the one i prefer is the Greenback G12M heritage for the smooth, fat and creamy sound, without harsh trebles, even if they just lack of a little bit of deep and round bass and bottom end.
BUT they only are less than 100dB, and as i said, i need high sensitivity, so i can't put 2 G12M as i'll lose some volume on the natural channel and will break it up earlier...

Note that the Heritage G12M is a 96dB 20 watter vs the standard 98dB 25W 'M'. I'd strongly recommend the standard one in your case.

I've mail Celestion just to be sure of the sensitivity of the 3 G12H (heritage bass cone 55c/s, new 2011 heritage lead cone 75c/s, and the 70th anniv) and i can tell that they're all 100dB, even if on their website the 55c/s is rated at 98dB (they told me it's a mistake).

Yes that is just a mistake on their new website. Orange used to be really good at that stuff too!

What's missing is, like Andy told, a real comparison between heritage 55Hz and the new 75Hz, juste to know the difference in term of deepness of bottom end and "harshness" of the treble side
It's not easy as i found some reviews that the 75Hz are smoother on the high end than the 55Hz (that is not so evident, i think everyone will have thought the contrary, so hard to be sure...).
I only consider Heritage for the moment because i don't want to have to wait for the breaking-in period like it's necessary with the 70th anniv (that i found some reviews mentioning it can sound harsh at the beginning), because heritage have the reputation to have the same sound when you get them and after a lot of running time, and finally again because it's (in theory) the sound of the pre-rola and rola ones.
Where Andy is right is that 70anniv are cheaper, and it can really be a good thing just to make a trial with one, series-linked with a V30 in the PPC212

I don't really notice that much difference in the treble response betwen the two types. Be relatively subtle - both are fairly strong in the treble to my ears. But yes, I'd have thought the standard was a little more toppy overall. Whether that was due to the different overall tonal balance or genuinely stronger treble in the 75Hz variant I really don't know.
Never heard of the Heritage ones coming already broken in, and I'd be surprised if that was so. I know that Scumback speakers do some broken in examples of their (excellent) Celestion style speakers. Don't think that Celestion do though.

The perfect one (still according to soundclips etc) will be an in-between of the G12M and G12H

Finally, i can just tell that if i'll have to make my choice now, i think i'll choose heritage 75Hz lead cone just to be sure to have quite a controlled bottom, but it's maybe just a "foreseen" (and maybe wrong?) idea...

What do you think about that dudes

Well there are so many options. We can only pass on our own experiences here. I find the standard G12H a great clean through driven rock all rounder. If wanting something tonally between it and a G12M25 I'd simply mix them in the same cab. I'd suggest trying it on its side with the H at the bottom to accentuate its bottom end. If you are that worried about the tonal and sound spread response of your cab that is probably the way to go...

FWIW I find it very hard to tell much about speakers from clips. Different amps, different settings and different microphones / mic positions all make a huge difference to what you hear - at least as great as the differences between speakers. And many side by comparisons have all speakers being run with the exact same amp settings = totally artificial. In the real world you'd adjust the amp to get the best out of each speaker type. Honestly I'd not get too hung up on trying to judge from those clips.

Hope that clarifies more than it confuses!


Andy.

[Woodsie]

FWIW, the G12h30 was a nice upgrade and works well with the other V30. May not be the final solution but it's good and didn't cost me a dime. Cut the cab's power handling in half, that's the only drawback.

[jerem37]

Hi,

and thanks again Andy for this really detailed answer

In fact, to summarize, you suggest to put the PPC212 on its side to make a vertical 2*12 isn't it?
That's what i was thinking about since i play with my (1st) band and for the future, cause at the moment my R30 has always be @home, but now that i play in a band (in the rehearsal room, there's always solid state amps so i've never took my R30 since we played together) and that we'll make some shows, i'll try to put it like you told, even with the 2 V30 inside.
I think it'll be a real pleasure to push it in a band configuration!!!!

Anyway, to speak again about speakers, i think the G12H and G12M will be the best choice for me to mix with a V30 or to mix together. Maybe 2 G12H, or one G12H + one V30, or one G12H with one G12M like you told...That's what i'll think about.
And, if i have well understood what you suggest, the speaker with the deeper bottom end always a the bottom in a vertical PPC212 configuration.

In fact, you're right that Celestion don't really precise that Heritage series speakers are broken in like Scumback ones with the FBI option, but, on french forums, all the owners of heritage speakers tell that they don't sound really different when they are new or used. The difference, if there's one, is really less than with others standards speakers.
That's what i wanted to explain

[a.hun]

Hi,

and thanks again Andy for this really detailed answer

In fact, to summarize, you suggest to put the PPC212 on its side to make a vertical 2*12 isn't it?
That's what i was thinking about since i play with my (1st) band and for the future, cause at the moment my R30 has always be @home, but now that i play in a band (in the rehearsal room, there's always solid state amps so i've never took my R30 since we played together) and that we'll make some shows, i'll try to put it like you told, even with the 2 V30 inside.
I think it'll be a real pleasure to push it in a band configuration!!!!

Anyway, to speak again about speakers, i think the G12H and G12M will be the best choice for me to mix with a V30 or to mix together. Maybe 2 G12H, or one G12H + one V30, or one G12H with one G12M like you told...That's what i'll think about.
And, if i have well understood what you suggest, the speaker with the deeper bottom end always a the bottom in a vertical PPC212 configuration.

In fact, you're right that Celestion don't really precise that Heritage series speakers are broken in like Scumback ones with the FBI option, but, on french forums, all the owners of heritage speakers tell that they don't sound really different when they are new or used. The difference, if there's one, is really less than with others standards speakers.
That's what i wanted to explain

Hi again jerem37. You're welcome.

Yes if you can live with the look (oh no, the badge is the wrong way! ) then putting the PPC212 on its side makes sound sense. The tones heard to each side will be much closer to the sound in front, and everybody will hear you better - the audience and your band mates.

You'll have a lot of fun with the R.30 through that cab. And you are lucky because you can try those different speaker combinations and see which works for you best. The G12M and G12H combination can be really good as I said above. But a lot of people like a V.30 / G12H combination too. Probably depends how much you use high gain sounds - then the V.30 would probably be the better bet IMO. My own tastes don't matter though - just find which works best for you.

Yep, speaker with the bigger bass response is usually better nearer the floor.

On breaking in speakers, some change a lot more than others. How quickly they break in also varies a lot. V.30s take a long time to break in and actually change much more than most others. Frankly most Orange users probably don't ever hear a really well broken in V.30 because their amps aren't powerful enough to really push those drivers:
100W Orange head through a 240W cab? That'll not push them hard at all.
AD30 combo? 30W into 120W worth of speakers? I don't think they'll EVER really break in!
My 1x12 R.30 combo's speaker still sounds brand new (unfortunately ).

Really well broken in V.30s are actually really nice - a lot smoother yet still nice and crisply defined. They never totally lose that upper midrange peakiness but it calms down A LOT. I once heard a hard worked one sitting next to an alnico Gold (recent 50W version of the 15W alnico Blue) and those two speakers sounded amazingly close to each other. Both sounded great and if I hadn't seen the back of the combo I'd have not believed it. My friend whose amp it was sold the Gold and bunged his other V.30 back in!

It's true, G12H30s (standard Anniversary or Heritage 'bass' version) don't change nearly so much with use. My own original ('70s) 55Hz G12H-30 - which the Heritage version is based on - sounds pretty like any other G12H-30 old or new, just with a bit more bottom end than the standard ones. Yes they do break in, but the difference in tone is not nearly so dramatic as with V.30s which have been worked hard for a while.

Just two general things on swapping speaker:
1. Be careful not to overtighten the screws / bolts when fixing them to the speaker baffle. You want to compress the cork / rubber / paper ring near the speaker edge a bit but not so much the metal frame touches the wood. Also tighten them all evenly. Both help prevent any twisting of the speaker frame which can put the voice coil out of alignment and damage the speaker.
2. Those clip on 'spade' speaker wire connections are handy when swapping them out, but when you decide which you like I'd strongly recommend properly soldering those speaker connections. Spade connectors aren't very good electrically to begin with and can loosen right off which is dangerous for your amp. Soldering will improve reliability and can also often improve the sound.
Spades = bad news!
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... ilit=spade" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Andy.

[jerem37]

Hi Andy,

yes, badge will be on the wrong way, but i don't care!!!

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I'll see later as i don't have the money for new speakers at the moment, but i don't use hi-gain settings on the Rocker, i prefer the gain between noon and max 1 o'clock, and i prefer increase the volume (to push my SED windged C EL34 ) and use my special Ballast Trouble Booster (sort of treble & clean booster made by a great french craftman, i.e. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDaFTGU5 ... r_embedded for parts that need an extra kick!!!!
It really enhance the Rocker sound
Damned it takes a lot of time to break in the V30, as i thnik, as you said, it can sound really goods with them with just a softened sound like that.

Thanks also for the tips on the speaker' mounting operation, i didn't know for the screws, and i'll take care when i'll try other speakers. And i'll get out the spade at the same time

[Woodsie]

I took my AD30HTC head over to my brothers house to play it through his 300w Marshall 412 with G12H75s. It sounded unbelievable with high-ish gain. I don't remember how the clean was because i was so excited about the drive tone. I also played my brothers studio LP through it with much higher output pickups than my LP so, that might have been a big factor also. all i know is, it's the tone i've been chasing for years. I just went with a SD SH-4 JB in the bridge of my LP. it has similar specs to my brother's 498t. if that doesn't do it, i might consider these speakers for my Orange 212.
Actually, thinking of it. would i be better off going with another G12H30w to match the one i already have. is it basically the same speaker with lower power handling capability? that would allow the speaker to break up at a lower volume.

[a.hun]

I took my AD30HTC head over to my brothers house to play it through his 300w Marshall 412 with G12H75s. It sounded unbelievable with high-ish gain. I don't remember how the clean was because i was so excited about the drive tone. I also played my brothers studio LP through it with much higher output pickups than my LP so, that might have been a big factor also. all i know is, it's the tone i've been chasing for years. I just went with a SD SH-4 JB in the bridge of my LP. it has similar specs to my brother's 498t. if that doesn't do it, i might consider these speakers for my Orange 212.
Actually, thinking of it. would i be better off going with another G12H30w to match the one i already have. is it basically the same speaker with lower power handling capability? that would allow the speaker to break up at a lower volume.

My own experience is that G12T-75s suck almost all the richness of tone out of Orange amps. They have top and bottom, sure, but you lose all the rich midrange because they just can't put it out. Seriously, I've told before how one of those same (300W Marshall) cabs made my (very healthy) OR120 sound like a sick 50 watter. I think what you liked was more the bigger sound through a 4x12 but I promise you with different speakers (almost any other Celestions in fact!) you'd have been more impressed. Four G12H30s would have totally blown you away in comparison, they are both noticably louder and actually have decent midrange.

Unless of course you really just like those mid-scooped high gain sounds, in which case there are much better amps for that than Oranges...


Andy.

[jerem37]

Unless of course you really just like those mid-scooped high gain sounds, in which case there are much better amps for that than Oranges...
Andy.

Or other (and more "modern") Orange amps than a vintage sounding AD30

[Woodsie]

Not really into the mid-scooped modern tone. Good point though. I really dug the PGS demo of my amp and he was using the PPC 212 and SD SH-4 JB in his LP. I have a V30 and a G12H30 in my Ppc 212 right now. I'm looking forward to hearing the new SD pickup through it. The cab is at my other guitar players house right now.

[guitarcase]

Found v30's harsh. Put in 25w. g12m. much softer, more blues style. I like them a lot, and thats what I use now. Compared to the m's, G12h are a bit louder and punchier, with a slightly higher top end, and a bit more bass. M's have more mids. Mixing both, the h's seemed to overwhelm the m's a bit. These are the chinese made, and using a gibson LP through a TT.

[Woodsie]

I found the V30's to be harsh also. i happened to have a set of speakers laying around that i took out of my Classic 50. yet another V30 and the G12H30 75 anni. I figured it would be an upgrade if nothing else.