Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

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mrproxy
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Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by mrproxy » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:51 am

Hey, i just got my TB500 and was testing the treble "on its own" and thought it was pretty weak? Can anyone else confirm wether this i normal?


Thanks alots!

Newbie guy

bassdrop
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by bassdrop » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:18 pm

Can you elaborate? What were you doing precisely and what did you expect to hear but didn't?
mmmmmm drop

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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by mrproxy » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:28 pm

Sure!

I have the gain at 8 o clock, master at 8 o clock all eq is set to 0 except the treble set to max

With my jazz bass full vol the trble is weak

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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by jason41224 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 am

traditionally, orange's guitar amps are regarded as pretty dark (less treble than most amps). i've never played a TB or AD200, so i can't say if it's the same for their bass amps, but i would sort of assume so. what kind of tone are you after?
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by Randy Bass » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:34 am

Yeah, it is definitely voiced darker than your average bass amp. Dark and dirty is how I would describe the Terror Bass 500 (and the AD200B for that matter).
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by a.hun » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:55 am

mrproxy wrote:Sure!

I have the gain at 8 o clock, master at 8 o clock all eq is set to 0 except the treble set to max

With my jazz bass full vol the trble is weak
The preamp is apparently very similar to the all valve AD200B. And the great thing about almost all valve amplifiers is that the tone controls aren't totally seperate from each other. What that means is that if you want, say, a bit more treble, sure you can turn up the treble. But you can also turn down the bass, which will do it too, but differently. And the mid control will affect both the top and bottom ends quite a bit too. Tweak that, and you might want to just trim the others a bit too. So, though you might at first think that the tone controls aren't doing a huge amount, you can have lots of fun finding all sorts of shades of colour by subtly tweaking them. So since it is the balance of the controls which is important I'd say there is almost certainly nothing wrong with your amp.

Purely tranny amps tend not to be like this - the treble control only affects the top end, mid the mids, and bass the bottom end - boring!!!

What you'll also probably find is that having any one control set very high makes the other controls less effective than normal. Or (ironically, as in your case) the other way round too. Having the bass and mids set very low is also killing the treble frequencies... :wink:

Once you get used to this you'll realise that the controls are actually very good at getting a large variety of different tones. You just have to approach using them a different way. I'd suggest starting by putting everything to moderate settings (round 12:00) and seeing what happens to your sound when you start tweaking each of them gradually (or dramatically) away from there. Remember that since they are so interactive when tweaking one control you may well want to tweak the others to balance the change. Don't expect the amount of bass for example to stay constant as you tweak the mid and treble controls. You may need to adjust it too to keep things balanced. Ditto the mids. Both the treble and bass controls will have a very noticable effect on the midrange sounds.

It may take a little getting used to but when you do you'll find that these tone controls are way more 'organic' feeling and usually much more versatile too than those on s.s. amps. Important thing is to LISTEN to what is happening to your sound as you tweak them. And learn to think outside the box in terms of there always being different ways to get similar but different sounding results.

For example I was trying to get more bass out of a guitar with very light strings recently with one of my amps and ended up with the bass control on full and still not enough bass. By varying the treble and mids dramatically I was able to get a much fuller and bassier sound with the bass control just over half way. See what I mean?

Have fun experimenting. You'll be able to get a far bigger variety of sounds with your amp than you might expect! :D


Andy.
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by a.hun » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:41 am

So how did you get on mrproxy? Everything seem to be working?


Andy.
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by bassdrop » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:45 pm

Andy- hate to hit the buzzer on you here, buddy- but while I'm sure there are some similarities between the preamps of the AD200 and TB500 for Orange to say they run the same preamp, there is, however, one major derivation: The AD200 has a passive tone stack where the TB500 appears to use a Baxandall style active EQ. I actually downloaded the TB500 manual to verify this for another thread. The manual states that 12 o'clock is flat and that there is boost to the right and cut to the left- sounds like Baxandall to me (Baxandall style EQ's are used on most bass amps since Ampeg popularized them in the 60's). So while I agree with Andy to use your ears- the controls will react much more like a typical bass amp than the AD200 does.

That being said, I can tell you that the AD200 is a much darker sounding amp than pretty much any other bass amp I've played and I would not be surprised to find the same is true of the TB heads. I would first try bumping up your gain a little bit since it sounds like it is quite low. If that doesn't help bring out the highs a bit, you may want to try some tube swapping. I found the stock Chinese tubes to increase the darkness. Try going with some Russian Tung Sol reissues. I also found that using a 5751 in one of the slots decreases the overall gain slightly but also brings out some more highs. You may also find that the Orange tone is not for you. It's not a very egalitarian tone for anyone used to the Eden or SWR sound and so not for everyone. Before you make any final decisions though, be sure to change your strings- sometimes I do that and it sounds like a whole new rig. YMMV, but let us know how you make out.
mmmmmm drop

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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by a.hun » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:46 pm

bassdrop wrote:Andy- hate to hit the buzzer on you here, buddy- but while I'm sure there are some similarities between the preamps of the AD200 and TB500 for Orange to say they run the same preamp, there is, however, one major derivation: The AD200 has a passive tone stack where the TB500 appears to use a Baxandall style active EQ. I actually downloaded the TB500 manual to verify this for another thread. The manual states that 12 o'clock is flat and that there is boost to the right and cut to the left- sounds like Baxandall to me (Baxandall style EQ's are used on most bass amps since Ampeg popularized them in the 60's).
Baxandall tone stacks can be either active or passive, but they all have one thing in common: they are simple bass / treble tone stacks! Old Oranges, some Ampegs, and Magnatones are among the very few instrument amps to ever use them, and I don't think the TB has a Baxandall type at all.

[FWIW, knowing exactly how effective the Baxandall tone stacks on the old OR amps were there are a few of us who've been saying Orange should start using them again. As far as I know that hasn't yet happened though.]

I agree the TB manual states that the treble, mid and bass controls are all active with both cut and boost. That'll be different from the AD200 than - and indeed different from what I recall hearing before now. Doesn't mean that they can't be interactive though. Sound City 120 (valve) amps had active tone controls, and I have a solid state preamp (the JD10 unit I mention from time to time) with very interactive controls. So it isn't quite as black and white as valve = passive, s.s = active tone controls. :wink:

From what mrproxy was saying in the first post either this is the case (interactive tone controls) or his amp is ill. Perhaps another TB owner could check what happens when the mid and bass controls are backed off totally with their own amps?


Andy.
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by bassdrop » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:18 pm

A little Internet searching reveals my understanding of a Baxandall circuit may be flawed. I had assumed that all active circuits were of this type and that doesn't look to always be the case. However, most bass amps, as opposed to guitar amps, have tone stacks with boost/cut for each knob and 12 o'clock is flat (or whatever the designer considers to be flat). Interested to hear if there are any TB heads with passive tone stacks out there. There could also be a really bad sounding tube in the preamp there as well, which is why suggested maybe doing some swapping.
mmmmmm drop

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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by Randy Bass » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:18 pm

I don't remember the EQ on my TB500 being very dramatic like some bass amps are. Not that my memory is that good :D . I think I left all three controls pretty close to 12:00pm though because it sounded well-balanced with my 1x15 cab.
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by a.hun » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:34 pm

bassdrop wrote:A little Internet searching reveals my understanding of a Baxandall circuit may be flawed. I had assumed that all active circuits were of this type and that doesn't look to always be the case.
No indeed. Baxandall tone stacks (active or passive) are pretty unusual to find in fact. They were / are most often seen in high end hi-fi amps, where the bass and treble controls are designed to do a bit of subtle tonal rebalancing. Even there I very much doubt most bass / treble tone circuits these days are Baxendall inspired.

In instrument amps most simple 2 band bass / treble tone stacks certainly aren't Baxandall designs at all. Usually they are a standard FMV ('Fender Marshall Vox') 3 band tone stack, but with the middle control simply replaced with a fixed value resistor instead of a variable resistance pot.

Great thing about the Baxandall tone circuit designs is that apart from giving great tonal control they also sound very natural. I think the biggest drawback is that most people (well most guitarists I mean! :wink:) don't think they'll get enough tonal control with just a two band EQ. With a Baxandall EQ that really isn't an issue though. In reality they tend to be more effective than standard 3 band FMV EQs!
Nick on that:
http://orangeampguide.atspace.com/orangetonestack.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Andy.
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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by mrproxy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:38 am

Hey guys,

I guess the treble is "relatively weaker" comparing to the mid and bass eq, meaning if I were to Duplicate the same test(keeping Master and gain @ 8'o clock) with the Bass or mid knobs, the volume would be 2 to 3 times as loud as to Trebles.

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Re: Terror Bass 500 TB500 Treble volume

Post by a.hun » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:43 pm

mrproxy wrote:Hey guys,

I guess the treble is "relatively weaker" comparing to the mid and bass eq, meaning if I were to Duplicate the same test(keeping Master and gain @ 8'o clock) with the Bass or mid knobs, the volume would be 2 to 3 times as loud as to Trebles.
Again, probably normal. Apart from Oranges not being the toppiest amps ever, there is much more audible power in the mid and higher bass frequencies compared to the treble ones. Our ears are simply most sensitive to midrange frequencies.

It doesn't really matter how the amp responds with only one of the tone controls up. It was NEVER designed to be used like that! It is as artificial a test as trying a fast lap of the Nurburgring in a Porsche or Ferrari using only one gear...


Andy.


Andy.
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Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

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