OR120 headroom.. thoughts.

[boroman]

Guys, I played a lot with my OR120 (pix only) on bass and I think it's THE ultimate tone for me. Just need a LITTLE more of this headroom. Tried ECC81 on V1 - that is GREAT. Could not think about getting back to ECC83 or 5751. 81's have way more headroom. Also, I have KT77's in there. So, I have EL34 sound but not that compressed. Bias point set at 35mA.

What should I do to have a little more headroom?
- different tube on V2? (5751? ECC81?) now Mullard ECC83 is there
- different bias (30mA)
- ECC82 on V1???

[Gladmarr]

A second OR120 would definitely give you more headroom!

[a.hun]

A second OR120 would definitely give you more headroom!

Or a Hiwatt...

Yes boroman I liked what a 12AT7 did to my OR120 for bass when I tried it. But I think thats about as much as you can easily do to improve the clean headroom. With the OR amps it is very much the preamp section which distorts first. So while their tone for bass is superb they aren't the best for clean headroom.

I did just buy a Hiwatt DR103 though. They do the clean headroom thing and the solidity, tone and sheer bigness of sound is just fantastic. (Best bass sounds I've ever had IMO, including my trusty old Orange.) Looking forward to trying the two together sometime using the Orange to grunge up the Hiwatts clean sounds. That is going to be a bit special I think!

If you just want more of the same though than you want to pick up an old Orange slave amp and run it from your OR into another cab. Since they are basically just the power section of your amp (no preamp controls) that should give you exactly what you want and keep you fit too!


Andy.

[thenetsux]

Those slaves are expensive and hard to come by... Man, I'd love to have one sitting under my ad140.

[markjazzbassist]

perfect thread, i'm looking for a pics only head for my bass rig. i've been hearing all the naysaying about not enough clean power and such and being that i play with a light touch and really don't need ear bleeding volume (in ear monitors, just need enough volume to mic it up for the FOH guy), i've been thinking i could actually pull it off.

how much can you turn up the gain before it breaks up?

[a.hun]

perfect thread, i'm looking for a pics only head for my bass rig. i've been hearing all the naysaying about not enough clean power and such and being that i play with a light touch and really don't need ear bleeding volume (in ear monitors, just need enough volume to mic it up for the FOH guy), i've been thinking i could actually pull it off.

how much can you turn up the gain before it breaks up?

Depends...

...on where you set the FAC. Bassy settings will distort quicker.
...on how you set the EQ. Ditto.
...on the output of your pickups.
...on the valves.

My own MV OR120M 'Overdrive' amp at my typical tone settings with the MV volume set full open will distort with the gain between about 09:00 and 10:00 (by the clock). Apparently having the MV wide open gives you a very similar sound to the non MV models, but how exactly that relates to the single volume control on a non MV amp before distortion I couldn't honestly say. (I've played a couple over the years but that was some time ago.) Suffice to say that the OR120 really doesn't do loud cleans as compared with many / most valve amps of similar power levels. The preamp just distorts so easily.

That isn't 'naysaying' though. My Orange has been my main bass amp for 30 years. And I've played most gigs without going through the PA, including some pretty decent sized halls. If great tone rather than out and out sheer clean headroom / volume is what you're after than you'll love an OR120 through a decent cab for bass. Especially if you like some grit on your sound.

I A/B'd the OR120 with my 'new' '74 DR103 for guitar for the first time today. (At relatively moderate volumes but all power levels using my THD Hotplate.) Though the Orange can do great cleans for guitar at lower gain settings it really wants to overdrive. It'll do that from around the above 9-10 o'clock settings even with a lower output guitar with lightish strings. A big contrast with the Hiwatt which will do great cleans at all volumes, but needs to be pushed really hard to even think about distorting. These two big powerful amps are pretty much extreme opposites on the clean headroom stakes, but yeah, I always found the Orange more than amp enough for my bass needs. (I'm not power crazy either. )
Now of course I'll have the luxury of using it as a pure bass overdrive rather than the core tone of my sound. Perfect!


Andy.

[markjazzbassist]

alright. just got a 1972 or120 today. should be headed my way soon. sounds like it'll be just what i'm hoping for

[a.hun]

alright. just got a 1972 or120 today. should be headed my way soon. sounds like it'll be just what i'm hoping for

Alright!

Congratulations and good luck with that. There is nothing like a big old Orange!

Do you know much about the amps history? Like has it been regularly used / serviced etc in recent years? Valve types / condition, that sort of stuff? If unsure you are best to have it properly checked over when it arrives, especially with regard to the filter capacitors and valves / biasing. When well sorted and run with really strong power valves these should be close to bomb proof reliable.


Andy.

[markjazzbassist]

yeah it's in great working order and was just serviced recently. i'll post some pics and thoughts when it gets here. i'm really excited.

[OrangePaul]

Suffice to say that the OR120 really doesn't do loud cleans as compared with many / most valve amps of similar power levels. The preamp just distorts so easily.

Please tell me you're joking....what exactly are you comparing it too lol ...i guess you're comparing it to other bass amps though rather than guitar?

I'm running my OR120 non master vol on half power at the moment (2 JJ E34L's fitted) and that doesn't start to break up (with a telecaster straight in) till about 12 oclock and STILL packs more clean punch than Mike Tyson lol. Maybe the E34L's are giving me a bit more clean headroom . I do intend to switch back to EL34's in the near future as I'm currently experimenting using this amp with a recently aquired THD hotplate. Word of warning though the E34L's do require different biasing though, or at least the set I picked up do.

[a.hun]

Suffice to say that the OR120 really doesn't do loud cleans as compared with many / most valve amps of similar power levels. The preamp just distorts so easily.

Please tell me you're joking....what exactly are you comparing it too lol ...i guess you're comparing it to other bass amps though rather than guitar?

I'm running my OR120 non master vol on half power at the moment (2 JJ E34L's fitted) and that doesn't start to break up (with a telecaster straight in) till about 12 oclock and STILL packs more clean punch than Mike Tyson lol. Maybe the E34L's are giving me a bit more clean headroom . I do intend to switch back to EL34's in the near future as I'm currently experimenting using this amp with a recently aquired THD hotplate. Word of warning though the E34L's do require different biasing though, or at least the set I picked up do.

Absolutely not joking!

Yes you can get very loud cleans with these amps. But that is simply because - even when run as OR80s with just two EL34s - by modern standards they are devastatingly loud amps. Compared to other big valve amps of the era though Oranges were the exact opposite of 'clean' amps, being primarily designed to be overdriven into distortion. Not high gain distortion mind - that came later on - but they were still no messing out and out rock amps.

Nick Santore, who now and again posts here as 'fiveightandten', knows these amps inside out. He has written a couple of great articles on them which are well worth checking out here:
http://orangeampguide.atspace.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nick is one of the best people I've come across at describing amps and their sounds. I really couldn't put it better than he already has in a couple of his old posts here on the OR120:

(http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... it=pitiful" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
OR's have pitiful clean headroom for their power level, and have absolutely brutal, chest pounding, rip your face off overdrive. They are simply one of the most aggressively voiced amps ever made, and the distortion is the entire reason you buy one.

(http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... l&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Hmm...well, OR-120's aren't really warm amps to begin with. Not in the conventional sense of the word. They're very dark when overdriven, so they do have a tone to them that shouldn't be harsh. But they also have a ton of texture, and a VERY aggressive voicing. They're fat, dark, and prickly. Far from smooth and silky, if that's the kind of warm tone you're referring to.

...Transition into overdrive shouldn't be a problem. OR-120's probably have the most abrupt breakup of any amp i've ever played. That makes it very easy to clean them up with the volume knob...or even just changing your pick attack. Headroom is pitiful though, so that only goes so far...depending on the volume you play at (and with active pickups, that may be even more of an issue).

No I'm not comparing it to bass amps, but to other guitar amps of the day. If you heard just exactly what something like my Hiwatt 100 can do in terms of really loud clean sounds than you'd realise exactly what Nick and I are talking about...


Andy.

[OrangePaul]

Ok put it this way then.....the OR120 does bigger louder cleans far better than an AC30 or Fender Twin both of which were considered to be THE word on clean for a long time probably still even now. I had the pleasure of using my OR120 into my brothers JBL loaded fender twin amps speaker section (i.e using the fender twin as a speaker cab only). So I really know how good the cleans can be on this amp (In other words if your using celestions IMO then you're yet to hear the true clarity of any amp). The magnets on JBL's are huge in comparison to any celestion i've ever seen and probably double in weight.
But yes the distortion is brutal when it comes in but obviously doesn't distort to the extent of a marshall which is considered THE word on distortion and probably still is by many. So we'll all have to agree to disagree on that one lol. And to describe the OR120's clean headroom as pityfull is (i'm sorry) wholly inacurate. The thing I find with the orange is that its just so clear you don't realise how loud they actually are until the neigbours are sending the little girl next door around asking you to turn it down lol and thats way before any breakup!!!

And yes I do know how loud Hi Watts can be. I had the fortune (or misfortune lol) at our last gig of trying to compete with a 400watt bass rig and a 100watt guitar combo, me armed with only an AC30....with no opportunity for a sound level check!!! lol
Liked the sound of the Hi Watt combo I must say...very loud, very gritty, and the best valve bass rig ive most likely ever shared a stage with too.
In retrospect I should have gone through the Hiwatt, me been the main guitarist... but it was decided that I would use the vox as its clean clarity would let my playing shine through more lol

[a.hun]

Hi Paul,


Well percerptions are funny. I think its largely a question of scale here really, and comparing (or not) like with like. Lol!

Well while we're both talking about things we clearly love here, we may well have to agree to disagree on a couple of things. No problem there though, opinions are opinions and everybody has those. Quite right too!

BTW for background, although I'm mainly a (fretless / fretted) bass player, I do play all sorts of electric / acoustic / nylon guitar too. I actually own more guitars and guitar amps than basses and bass amps, so I can come at this from both angles...

I know that AC30s have the reputation of being amongst the best clean sounding amps ever. I both agree and disagree with that. IMO fact 'clean sounding' is right IMO. To quote myself (in a previous forum incarnation)...

(http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Well for starters Vox amps (AC15s and AC30s anyway) don't actually have much true clean headroom. They often give the impresion of being 'crystal clean' when they are actually already starting to overdrive. (I'm talking technically 'not clean' here - if you put the signal through an oscilloscope you'd not see a clean 'sine' waveform, even though it still 'sounded' clean!) It is just that the sounds are so sweet and the notes stay so well defined (even within chords) that they sound much cleaner than they really are. I know Voxes are 'famous for their great cleans', but honestly clean is one thing they aren't at anything approaching working volumes. What they do have are some of the best and most useable 'cleanish through crunch' sounds known to mankind.

Like I say, perceptions! IMO it was more than a bit unfriendly of people to decide for you that an AC30 could really keep up with a powerful Hiwatt rig. Good AC30s are truly great amps and uncommonly loud for 30 watters especially with efficient speakers. They can easily can give many 50+ watters a serious fright. But even so unfair fight! (Assuming you are talking unmic'd anyway.)

I am a huge Vox fan too BTW being lucky enough to own a very nice '65 / '66 JMI era AC30 Top Boost head. In my case a 'B' for bass version, though I almost always use it for guitar. This thing is wonderful if sometimes pretty frustrating - by far the most temperamental amp I own. Sometimes it sounds like sweet thunder, other times I can twiddle away for ages and not get any real magic from it. Sounded fine the other day though. Think it is at least partly a voltage thing, mains voltages varying a surprising amount with time of day / user load. I think they are relatively sensitive to that - older ones certainly. That and the fact that linking the three separate channels together with jumper leads means that they all interact in strange, often wonderful, but not terribly predictably ways. On a good day though its clean sounds, crunch, and overdrive are all magical. True clean headroom though? Not much at all...


JBLs are about the most efficient as well as cleanest / fullest sounding speakers ever made. Through those even medium wattage amps like AC30s will do loud cleans. (I could probably just about get away with gigging my little 10W rated '2061X Marshall sounding' TOA valve PA head through them, certainly for lead sounds!) Bigger amps do sound simply massive through JBLs right enough - while a huge Celestion fan I'd totally agree with you on that.


Sorry but I'm one of those 'strange' people who do consider Fender Twins - even stock - to be one of the last words on big clean sounds.

I used to live at a recording / rehearsal studio and had free access to a mates very healthy '65 Twin Reverb RI which I always enjoyed using a lot. (Apart from anything else these things are wonderful for recording bass, and more than usable live too within their speakers safe volume limits!)
I did once do the 'Back to the Future' guitar thing using my own humbucker guitar, and when cranked to extreme levels found they will eventually overdrive / crunch a bit, the tones being surprisingly nice. At least it sounded that way from the car park outside the rehearsal barn! But yeah, IMO these things DO practically define good clean headroom. (Comparable to very few other amps, the main ones coming to mind being Roland JC120s - solid state but still great amps - and of course old Hiwatts.)

You're finding otherwise really makes me wonder what is going on with your brothers Twin. (Especially if fitted with JBLs!) Which type is it anyway, 'Twin Reverb', 'The Twin', 'Twin Amp'? If it is the second, the red knob so called 'Evil Twin', well I could understand. Despite the wattage they never quite seem to have the depth of sound or 'grunt' of the others, even if they do do the gain thing. Still very decent amps, but not quite like the others. If it is one of the other two and won't do extremely loud extremely full sounding cleans than to be honest it may well need a health check. Either that or it has simply been modded for more gain at lower volumes - far from unusual as they just don't do that stock.

Back to Orange then.

Well you'll understand that as far as the OR120 is concerned I'm a huge fan. Bought mine nearly new in 1980 and I've never looked back. Almost every bass gig I've done has been with that amp, even through the long years when Orange amps were deeply unfashionable and people were selling them for peanuts, often painted black. I always knew and valued what I had, and have had many many compliments over the years for my bass sounds

Doing a forum or internet search on using OR120s for bass though will find you much the same comments:
"Fantastic tone but limited clean headroom!"
Couple of examples:
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?t=3294" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?t=6568" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you'll know we bassists like clean power and many do find the OR120 is pretty marginal on that front. As I said in my 2nd post above I'm not particularly power crazy myself so I've always found it just about adequate on that front with good bass cabs. But seriously in comparison to other really powerful '100 watters' these amps really don't have much clean headroom at all. As Nick said they go from clean to overdriven very suddenly indeed. No denying that for in absolute terms guitars they are extremely loud amps - even clean. Realistically way TOO loud for them to be used as originally intended these days on all but the very largest stages. But in comparison with many other amps of the time... (including healthy original 1959 Plexi Marshalls IMO which go into distortion later and rather more progressively )
http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewt ... =4&t=80470" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...their clean headroom is indeed pretty limited. 'Pitiful' is maybe a bit cruel in absolute terms, but compared to the Hiwatt, Sound City and other big amps of the time, honestly Nick does have a point!

Another point is that old Oranges really don't sound that massive until the volume is cranked a fair bit. Compare that with a Hiwatt which sounds huge even at low volumes. In fact my old tech John Phillips assures me the bigger Hiwatts - the 200 and 400 versions - show that even more. Apparently they sound absolutely massive even at bedroom volumes, something an OR120 definitely doesn't! Certainly my Custom 100 sounds very big even at lower volumes through a smaller cab in a way that the OR120 just doesn't. Read posts 2, 3 and 4 here for some reasons why that is - volume being about more than power:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=277137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really though all this isn't meant as some sort of 'put down' criticism of the OR120. They were simply never designed as clean amps in the first place, but as rock weapons of war. The whole deal was to let them really rip by distorting at extreme volumes, that distortion coming in very suddenly and controllably. Below that level they are pretty clean. And if they stay clean loud enough for your needs (which they should do in any normal modern stage situation!) there is no problem at all. But without lowering the preamp gain (eg by fitting anything other than 12AX7 / ECC83 preamp valves) their levels of clean headroom really are pretty limited compared to similarly wattage amps from most other vintage amp manufacturers. We ARE comparing 'very loud indeed' with 'thunderously loud' though, and the differences ARE way more obvious for us bass players!

Now how about Mesa Boogie combos and their cleans...?


Andy.

[Gladmarr]

Keep in mind, Andy has an OR120M, which does NOT sound the same as an OR120 without a master volume. It's close, but a little more thin & gainy because of the master volume circuit affecting the tone slightly. I have three OR120M amps and several non-master amps, and the MV amps don't clean up like the NMV amps. Yeah, Orange isn't as clean as Hiwatt, but the tone is much better all around if you ask me.

[a.hun]

Keep in mind, Andy has an OR120M, which does NOT sound the same as an OR120 without a master volume. It's close, but a little more thin & gainy because of the master volume circuit affecting the tone slightly. I have three OR120M amps and several non-master amps, and the MV amps don't clean up like the NMV amps. Yeah, Orange isn't as clean as Hiwatt, but the tone is much better all around if you ask me.

So is 12:00 about normal for start of breakup with the non MV amps then? As I said its been a while since I've had that pleasure.

Of course I totally love the Orange tone - wouldn't be here if I didn't. But I'm genuinely knocked out by the rich full tones from my DR103 right now. The tone controls are very effective and of course like the Oranges it has a presence control as well. Its been quite a revelation for me in fact this past couple of weeks - I've practically fallen in love again with every guitar or bass I've plugged into it so far. Apart from crunch and meaty overdrive I'm a fan of great true clean sounds too and I've honestly never enjoyed better. Takes pedals a treat too. They are undeniably very different amps though and likes / dislikes are totally a matter of taste.


Andy.