I need some advice on buying a new tube amp.

The Kid · Post by **The Kid** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:49 am

I currently own a Line 6 duoverb 212. It's going on a year and as much as i enjoy it's modeling of 16 legendary amps, I have been researching tube amps lately. I have convinced myself I need to get one. Just up until a week ago I never heard of Orange. I'v been testing some Vox & Mesa and love the sounds and tone I've heard, one's I will never get from my duoverb. I'm wanting something in the 15-30 watt range, possibly with just clean tones for the purpose of running effects through it. Possibly the digitech GNX4. My question is should I hold out until I can try out an Orange. I am interested in the Orange Rocker 30. I know it's not cheap, but at the same time I don't plan on buying another tube amp anytime soon. Can someone help me in making the smart & logical decision. Or just good advice.

ceddyluv82 · Post by **ceddyluv82** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:30 am

Hey Kid.. welcome to the forum!

there are 3 combos that come to mind, 2 of them would be in the specs you want, and the 3rd would be another alternative not in your specs.

Orange AD15... its a 15 watt combo with traditional valve rectification. its got 2X EL84 output tubes, 2 X ECC83 preamp tubes, and of course the GZ34 rect. tube. Its got a celestion vintage 30 speaker. 8 and 16 ohm speaker outs.
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/oradamcom.html <-- picture

Orange AD30R and the AD30TC... 30 watt combo with traditional valve rectification on both. the R model is the one with the accutronic 3- spring reverb tray.( that means it has reverb lol)<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> The TC model is the twin channel version. Both have 4X EL84 output tubes, the reverb model has 3X ECC83 preamp tubes while the TC model has 4X ECC83 preamp tubes. They both have 2 celestion vintage 30 speakers.
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/oradsinchanc.html <-- picture

The third option you have is a Orange AD5. I dont know what people think of them, but I do know they are expensive, rare, and very small. 5 watts of power into a 10 inch speaker. 1X EL84 power tube, and 1X ECC83 preamp tube. http://www.geocities.com/n0nym0us/OFG_AD/AD5.jpg <-- picture

Kid, I can only comment on the AD's because thats all I know about. The rocker models are out of my knowledge, but I am sure you'll have more responces.... but this is what I can offer you! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> If you want something great for recording with effects I would think the AD15 might be your thing.... thats just my opinion. I am also a dumb bass player though!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good luck...

P.S. I just searched for pictures for the sake of showing them to you. I dont do it to advertise any one!

Why are Orange amps orange, when they make everyone green with envy?

Edited by - ceddyluv82 on 19 Nov 2004 02:33:21

fiveightandten · Post by **fiveightandten** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I currently own a Line 6 duoverb 212. It's going on a year and as much as i enjoy it's modeling of 16 legendary amps, I have been researching tube amps lately. I have convinced myself I need to get one. Just up until a week ago I never heard of Orange. I'v been testing some Vox & Mesa and love the sounds and tone I've heard, one's I will never get from my duoverb. I'm wanting something in the 15-30 watt range, possibly with just clean tones for the purpose of running effects through it. Possibly the digitech GNX4. My question is should I hold out until I can try out an Orange. I am interested in the Orange Rocker 30. I know it's not cheap, but at the same time I don't plan on buying another tube amp anytime soon. Can someone help me in making the smart & logical decision. Or just good advice.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'm just going to interject with a few comments that may sound presumptious, or possibly even rude...but simply because of things that I find to be true of every person i've known who makes the move to a tube amp from solid state units.

First off...if you're looking for an amp that will just be used for clean tones...maybe a tube amp isn't what you need. Very few are pristine clean at band volumes, and the real magic of vacuum tubes happens when they overdrive.

That being said, getting a tube amp will change your playing. The first thing you'll notice will be the sound, but the FEEL of a tube amp vs a modelling amp is the actually pretty different. How it responds to dymanics, picking, and the nuances of your playing.

The Duoverb has some prety darn nice sounding models. I'm partial to the Vox and Fender models. The Marshall ones are OK, but the Mesa, Soldano, and others leave a lot to be desired IMO.

But, a good tube amp will feel worlds different from the Duoverb, especially if it's being used with an effects unit. Your first instinct will be to turn the gain up, because it will seem much cleaner than what you're used to, and it'll make you feel very open...you'll hear every note that doesn't get fretted perfectly.

I definitely think you should wait a while until you decide to purchase an amp. It sounds like you've got a lot to read about, and a lot to learn if you plan on dropping that kind of cash. It's tough to decide on exactly what you think you'll need, because I honestly think your playing style will change a good deal and your needs will change too.

The new Oranges are nice sounding amps, but there are a lot more real nice amps for the same price or cheaper. If you're after the Orange sound, there's only one place to get it. But if you're looking for a nice sounding amp, or one with channel switching or other features, or one that will be reliable, or versatile...there's a lot of options to explore out there, and you should do so.

Check out:

www.drzamps.com (the best value, hands down...I wish I had one of these!)
www.thdelectronics.com (fantastic tone and build quality, nice mix between versatility and barebones tone)
www.voxamps.co.uk (the AC-30 and AC-15 are legandary for a reason...now the custom classic series are the cheapest AC-30's yet, and getting rave reviews)
www.laney.co.uk (the most under-rated amp company around, IMO, great tones and decent build quality for dirt cheap prices).

Look around, read some reviews at www.harmonycentral.com, figure out what kind of features you need, ask questions, listen to sound clips (try www.proguitar.de)....learn what's out there and narrow it down to a few amps you think you may like to settle down with. Play them all, then play them all again...then come back and ask more questions.

You can never learn enough about this stuff...especially when you're dropping that kind of cash.

Hope that helps...

-Nick

ceddyluv82 · Post by **ceddyluv82** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:30 am

Great idea on proguitar.de Nick! I go there all the time to fiddle around with their sounds... and completly forgot about it at the time of my reply. Anyway... I agree with most of what you said, besides the part about where a tube amp might not be the best choice for a clean sound. True the real magic is when you overdrive those things... you cant really model those sounds I think. However I do think a tube amp still could be a better choice for clean when you use the right tubes for the amp. You can choose a tube that breaksup early for a distortion right away... or you can choose one that breaks up very late.. for alot of nice, good, and clean sound. Like Nick said, definitly learn some stuff about tube amps, listen to em, play em and then make a good choice from what you like. A solid state will sound very static, and youll hear the same thing over and over again when you play those solos. A tube amp is going to make those sounds that people crave for.

Why are Orange amps orange, when they make everyone green with envy?

mpisarcik · Post by **mpisarcik** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:09 am

Agree with Nick for the most part. My Vox AC30 with Greenbacks sounds fantastic for clean. Yes, it does get some dirt when turned up, but I don't go over half way. I use this amp in compination with effects (boss dd-20, digitech reverb, proco vintage rat) to build great tone. My Orange AD30R is great for good old rock and roll. I plug straight in, and I think it sounds best like this.

Matt Pisarcik

Nothing is Black or White...it's all Grey.

fiveightandten · Post by **fiveightandten** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:27 am

I hear what you guys are saying about my comments about tubes amps and clean tones...I guess I should clarify a bit.

I remember the first time I played through a tube amp. My old band went in to record a CD, and the sound engineer offered up his '72 JMP Superlead instead of us recording with the Fender RockPro and Marshall Valvestate 100 heads that we owned at the time. We were happy to use the head, as for some reason it sounded magical. He hooked up an Ernie ball volume pedal with some cardboard taped under foot-piece, and told me to step on that for clean tones. It sounded incredible...even though I had no idea what it was at the time. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

But one thing that I couldn't get passed was the fact that the "clean"
wasn't clean. No matter how much he backed off on the gain, or backed the volume pedal down, it still sounded a little distorted to me. The sound engineer didn't hear it though...I thought something was wrong with me. We went back and forth, checking my headphones to see if they were distorting...and listening to the amp. I heard distortion...he insisted it was completely clean.

But the recording sounded fantastic, I was sold on tubes from then on in. A few weeks later I bought my first tube amp...a Peavey classic 100 head for $280. I was in heaven...but the clean was the same story. It was distorted at band volumes. Not a lot, just a little though...I wanted my cleans to be CLEAN.

Fast forward 3 years and I honestly can't even hear it now. I know that someone that's used to solid state amps will listen to my "clean" tone and think it's pretty broken up. But to my ears it sounds "tubey", "warm", "saturated", or "colorful". If it wasn't, it would sound "flat, or "sterile".

I guess I just try to keep that in mind for anyone who says they want to switch from a solid state amp to a tube amp for the clean tones...you'll probably be dissappointed. They're not clean, they're almost never clean...and that's exactly why they sound so good! The sound is imperfect, tubes almost can't reproduce the signal without distorting it a little at any reasonable volume.

You better believe I think my AC-30 sounds good clean. But my definition of clean and someone's definition of clean that's used to playing through a Roland Jazz Chorus will be pretty different. I guess i'm going on assumptions here based on what he plays...but you get what i'm trying to say...however roundabout I happen to convey it <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

-Nick

Andy H. · Post by **Andy H.** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am

Well, I'm not going to disgree with an of the above, but if our new Kid on the block really fancies getting into valve amps then why not?

Kid, I think you could do much worse then trying out the Rocker 30. Clearly you have been doing a bit of research, checking out the options, which is cool.

You'll have found no doubt that you can get really nice clean sounds from Mesa amps. Was that the F.30 you were checking out? A mate of mine reviewed that for one of the UK magazines, and was particularly impressed with the clean sounds from the new 'F' series. One thng to bear in mind about the F.30 is that it isn't a true 30 watt RMS (continuous average output measurement) amp. To be fair to Mesa they don't claim it to be. They use a neat system for their smaller EL84 powered amps known as 'Dyna-Watt'. This circuitry stores some energy up which is used to give a few moments peak output when it is really needed, like at the start of a big note or chord. It works well, especially for lead / rhythm work, (I have an earlier similar amp), but does mean that it isn't going to give a continuous 30 watt clean output. In practice though it's still reasonably loud, with a very good speaker - keeps up with a quiet drummer well enough. Does the Mesa / Boogie high gain thing too of course. Nice amp, I'm sure.

Voxes have a sound all of their own, and frankly have loads more character then Boogies to my (and many other) ears. Not truly clean at any real volume, but the clean(ish) sounds are very hard to beat, and when they get cooking... <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> (I have a Vox too.)

Orange amps are truly up there on the tonal character front though. If you were to check out the Rocker 30, (unlike the AD30s a single speaker combo, so much easier to lug around!), I think you might just find the clean channel you are looking for. Bear in mind that it doesn't have any tone controls on that channel. This sounds like a strange idea to some, but frankly if you've got a great basic amp sound, why mess with it. I have a couple of amps with only a tone / volume, and usually the tone gets left near max anyway. You've got one on most guitars anyway... I think that this channel would be a great place to use effects.
The dirty channel has full EQ, and goes from clean up to high gain. It's a new amp, but the few owners who have come on here have raved about the sounds from this amp. Only one slight known problem with some early production examples:
http://www.orangeamps.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2002

Just read 5 / 8 / 10s last post, and he's right. Valve amps, especially some like the AC30 are seldom truly clean. The difference from solid state amps though is that the distortion is very musical, so often not percieved as distortion until really quite pronounced. I suspect this might not be a problem for The Kid. If it is, and he really fancies valves, the only answer is to go for a much higher wattage amp which will have much more headroom before it distorts noticeably.

Hope that all helps TK.

Andy.

ceddyluv82 · Post by **ceddyluv82** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 am

Its like the endless discussion of how to describe the sound coming out of an amp. Only way to describe it is to hear it...

Clean to one person is not to another... same way distortion is.
I get what your saying though Nick!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Why are Orange amps orange, when they make everyone green with envy?

Andy H. · Post by **Andy H.** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Its like the endless discussion of how to describe the sound coming out of an amp. Only way to describe it is to hear it...
Clean to one person is not to another... same way distortion is.
I get what your saying though Nick!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I agree totally, and get exactly what Nick is saying.

Other possibilities worth checking out might be:

Mesa Boogie Subway Blues. 20 watt single channel 1x10 combo. I have the twin mode 'Rocket' version, but the clean channel really is lovely on this. Although only a 1x10, this is a serious and quality made wee amp, well suited to recording and small gigs. (Through a PA of course you could do any size of gig.) The Subway series is discontinued so available S/H only, but they are pretty good value.

Fender amps usually have nice clean sounds. Check out the current Blues Junior 1x12 15 watter with TMB (treble, mid, bass) EQ and reverb. Also the 1x10 Pro Junior,which is more basic with just tone and volume, no reverb. There are plenty more Fenders, old and new, worth a listen.

The Laney amps are indeed good on the sound / price front, and I'd add the 30 watt Peavey Classic 30. I have had and used one for about 10 years, and although not the most ruggedly built amp, it's sounds, both clean and driven, are again pretty decent for the price.

If you find that you do need more wattage, a very good value contender is the Carvin MTS 3212. This is a twin channel, twin speaker reverb equipped 100 watt combo (switchable to 50 watts), which has a great clean sound in particular. Loud!!!

However... Do try Orange! I've said it before more then once, because it's true: They sound so good they sell themselves. Classic and unique sounding amps.

Whatever you do, try a good selection of amps, as loud as you can to see how they really should sound, before shelling out your hard earned Roubles / Dollars / Pounds / Euros / whatever.
(Where in the world are you BTW Kid?)

Happy hunting!

Andy.

Orphin · Post by **Orphin** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Clean to one person is not to another... same way distortion is.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Wisely said.
I think I'm like Nick though. Sounds like it's never really clean.
If you have a bigger amp though you can still play kind of loud (on low volumes) without cranking the amp and by that getting a cleaner sound.

David

RV100H-1174-09-04
PPC 412 10699-01-04

irish_admiral · Post by **irish_admiral** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:14 am

Try before you buy. Always!

Don't tell me the best way, just tell me the cheapest way...

spoonie g · Post by **spoonie g** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:10 pm

www.proguitar.de go to the audio samples section there are a lot of different amp samples in their, including orange.

bassdrop · Post by **bassdrop** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:32 pm

Your choices depend on your needs and your resources. Never forget that when your shopping out gear. The money you save today might be money you spend again very soon if you're not satisfied with the outcome of your initial purchase.

Your main choice would be whether you want to go big or small. A small amp would be more controllable for stage sound if run through a PA, but might not be able to keep up with any of the many primeval loud drummers out there. If your looking at smaller well built amps www.decware.com is a site for a designer of amps mostly for hi-fi, but he also builds one model of guitar amp. It might be worth considering because it's not overly expensive, is completely point to point hand wired, and comes with a lifetime warranty. It's a single ended triode head with about 10 watts power.

Even smaller is the ZVex Nano head. This thing is only a 1/2 watt but according to many really rips. It's made specifically for recording, but ZVex also makes killer effects so you might want to search them out too.

Good luck on your journey

Andy H. · Post by **Andy H.** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:43 pm

The Orange AD5 was mentioned earlier by ceddyluv82. Not made now, but if you found one of the early custom shop built ones, that would be another top class small amp. The later PCB built one would be cheaper, but still very nice to have.
And BTW it definitely is a true single ended Class A design.

Andy.

motorsquad · Post by **motorsquad** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:02 pm

I second Nick talk about Dr. Z's...I love my Orange but those things are incredible...also a little more reliable in a straight from factory setting (they use better tubes).

I need some advice on buying a new tube amp.

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