what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

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Les Paul Lover
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Les Paul Lover » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 pm

Phlowen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:47 pm
Sootio wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:42 pm
Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:27 am
All the gain stages are on at all times. Your signal will flow through all 4 triode of the 2 ECC83 at all times, regardless of actual gain.
You can plainly hear where each gain stage kicks in. I suppose that's the point where the output of one stage becomes the input of the next stage, thus increasing the gain. That's why it's called cascading gain.


This is my understanding of it as well, though now I'm second guessing myself as Les Paul Lover isn't usually mistaken...
Crikey..... I'm so often mistaken.....

Sootio wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:42 pm
Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:27 am
Sootio wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:12 pm
All the amps with 4 gain stages are tied for most gain. Like others have said, I barely use the second stage. Somewhere between the 3rd and 4th hashmark is pretty much perfect. If you play metal, you probably go a bit past that.
All the gain stages are on at all times. Your signal will flow through all 4 triode of the 2 ECC83 at all times, regardless of actual gain.
You can plainly hear where each gain stage kicks in. I suppose that's the point where the output of one stage becomes the input of the next stage, thus increasing the gain. That's why it's called cascading gain.


Yes, they're called cascading gain stages and all flow through one another..... all of the time.
They're active at all times, and the gain level you set dictates how much signal flows through all four.

I used to think like you- especially on the RV50 where the gain has some obvious notches....
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, AD5, PPC212
Past Orange: Orange AD30TC Combo, Tiny Terror

Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

Sootio
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Sootio » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 pm
Phlowen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:47 pm
Sootio wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:42 pm

You can plainly hear where each gain stage kicks in. I suppose that's the point where the output of one stage becomes the input of the next stage, thus increasing the gain. That's why it's called cascading gain.


This is my understanding of it as well, though now I'm second guessing myself as Les Paul Lover isn't usually mistaken...
Crikey..... I'm so often mistaken.....

Sootio wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:42 pm
Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:27 am


All the gain stages are on at all times. Your signal will flow through all 4 triode of the 2 ECC83 at all times, regardless of actual gain.
You can plainly hear where each gain stage kicks in. I suppose that's the point where the output of one stage becomes the input of the next stage, thus increasing the gain. That's why it's called cascading gain.


Yes, they're called cascading gain stages and all flow through one another..... all of the time.
They're active at all times, and the gain level you set dictates how much signal flows through all four.

I used to think like you- especially on the RV50 where the gain has some obvious notches....
I definitely hear notches. This is my understanding of how it works...

"As we’ve touched on already, a single gain stage can be designed to squeeze the maximum amount of gain from that preamp tube, but most of the amps we consider high gain use several gain stages chained together—something called “cascading gain”—to achieve a hotter signal than one or two more vintage-style gain stages are capable of on their own. In amps of this type, the saturated overdrive sound we hear is typically produced by pushing early gain stages to very high levels, often chaining one into the other to continually drive the gain higher and enable desired levels of distortion, and then reining in the signal at the end of the line to create the desired final output level.

There’s a broad range of high-gain designs on the market, and different makers’ amps often do things in quite different ways. It’s also worth noting that they achieve a pretty wide range of gain levels within what we broadly call “high gain.” For example, today’s metal player might not consider a late-’70s Marshall 2204 high-gain at all, whereas it would have sounded extremely hot to the average rocker of its era.

Familiar names that typify the high-gain genre are Bogner, Soldano, Diezel, Fryette, EVH, ENGL, Fuchs, and, of course, good old Marshall and Mesa/Boogie—plus far, far more than we can list here. Most follow some evolution of circuitry that began with the original Mesa/Boogie designs, which chain together several gain stages. By increasing the gain incrementally from stage to stage (usually with controls labeled drive, gain, lead, or even just volume placed between them to govern how much signal from the previous stage is passed along to the next as you ramp up the signal all along the chain), designers can both conjure much higher levels of gain than a one- or two-stage preamp and still provide the player with the ability to dial in anything from the minimum to the maximum of that preamp’s capabilities."

My phrase "second gain stage kicking in" is probably oversimplified, but it seems adequate to describe what I'm hearing.

Les Paul Lover
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Les Paul Lover » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Sootio wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am

My phrase "second gain stage kicking in" is probably oversimplified, but it seems adequate to describe what I'm hearing.
Yes - some amps are more linear than others. With the RV50, or R30, you reach points on the gain control where the dirt level jumps quite a bit over a tiny fraction of the rotation.

I assumed too that it was the next gain stage kicking in, but they actually all contribute all the time.... Which makes more sense when you consider the circuit and its design. Looks at a schematic.... it's all flowing through to the power valve. The only switching is down by relays to alternate between clean and dirty channel.
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, AD5, PPC212
Past Orange: Orange AD30TC Combo, Tiny Terror

Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

Sootio
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Sootio » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:57 pm

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:27 pm
Sootio wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am

My phrase "second gain stage kicking in" is probably oversimplified, but it seems adequate to describe what I'm hearing.
Yes - some amps are more linear than others. With the RV50, or R30, you reach points on the gain control where the dirt level jumps quite a bit over a tiny fraction of the rotation.

I assumed too that it was the next gain stage kicking in, but they actually all contribute all the time.... Which makes more sense when you consider the circuit and its design. Looks at a schematic.... it's all flowing through to the power valve. The only switching is down by relays to alternate between clean and dirty channel.
I agree they're all on, but from what I've quoted above, it seems as though the first gain stage has to reach a certain point before the second stage starts to add it's bit in there, and so on. My TH30 has definite notches (both channels), and so does my OR15. Isn't the jump in gain going from 1 to 2 stages, or from 2 to 3, and so on? It wouldn't do me much good to look at the schematic.

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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Phlowen » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm

So you're both right, is what I'm hearing.
RV 50 MKI | TH30 | RV 50 MKIII
G&L Tele (ASAT Classic) | Musicman Bongo 5
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Sootio
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Sootio » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:26 pm

Phlowen wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm
So you're both right, is what I'm hearing.
Personally, I'm having an interesting conversation, and learning a few things. If I've been laboring under a delusion, it seems to be a fairly common one. There does seem to be more than one way to achieve cascading gain. For instance, if you have 2 overdrive pedals and run one into the other, that is cascading gain.

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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Jondog » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm

The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
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adkguy07
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by adkguy07 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:02 pm

Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm
The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
Would that double ganged pot be part of say, all Orange amps that have the 4 gain stages? I own two of their amps that feature 4 stages of gain.....the Dark Terror and the Micro Dark.


adkguy07

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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Jondog » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:12 pm

adkguy07 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:02 pm
Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm
The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
Would that double ganged pot be part of say, all Orange amps that have the 4 gain stages? I own two of their amps that feature 4 stages of gain.....the Dark Terror and the Micro Dark.


adkguy07
On modern orange amps the only ones that don't have it are the AD series, Retro 50, likely the Tremlord too. I can't speak for the solid state amps either. But yes, the Dark Terror does. Micro Dark I'm not sure of, because I don't have a schematic for it and it only has one valve in the preamp which only makes up two gain stages, so I'm not sure how they arranged the circuit to mimic the Dark Terror.
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by adkguy07 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:35 pm

I've listened to a few interviews with Ade Emsley who is Orange's chief amp designer. I do learn a few things from listening to him. I have the feeling that he reveals a lot of “general” information on his designs and how the differ from each other. What intrigues me is that he also has a wealth of technical knowledge that will remain within his mind on what techniques he has used, or will use in the future, to present new concepts in Orange amps.

The more I listen to Orange amps and specifically my own Dark Terror, the more I appreciate what he's managed to accomplish with his concepts, keeping his amps sounding just a bit different then the competition, making them reliable, practical, and yet affordable. That original Tiny Terror has prompted a lot of competitors to produce their own “take” on similar concepts. All of this after a generation of large, powerful, and heavy iron amps became the standard.


adkguy07

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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Sootio » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:39 pm

Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm
The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
So what are we hearing at the notches?

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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Jondog » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Sootio wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:39 pm
Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm
The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
So what are we hearing at the notches?
Clipping at different frequencies
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Les Paul Lover
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Les Paul Lover » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:43 pm

Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm
Sootio wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:39 pm
Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm
The gain stages are all in series, they are not on/off or switched independently, what comes out of one is fed into the next.You can adjust when each begins to clip to a point through design, but they are always producing signal. Something unique to modern Orange amps is the use of a dual gang pot for the gain control which adjusts the signal level hitting the 2nd and 3rd stage at the same time or in the case of the Tiny Terror the 2nd stage and the phase inverter.
So what are we hearing at the notches?
Clipping at different frequencies
Jondog beat me to it.

Yes, just a point when the cumulative clipping raises more than at other points.

I wonder if the extra clipping added by the 1st ECC83 triode causes the following triodes to clip even more - similarly to how one stacks OD pedals and the 1st one causes the rest to go mental.
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, AD5, PPC212
Past Orange: Orange AD30TC Combo, Tiny Terror

Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

Sootio
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Re: what is the highest gain Orange in production atm?

Post by Sootio » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:21 pm

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:43 pm
Jondog wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm
Sootio wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:39 pm


So what are we hearing at the notches?
Clipping at different frequencies
Jondog beat me to it.

Yes, just a point when the cumulative clipping raises more than at other points.

I wonder if the extra clipping added by the 1st ECC83 triode causes the following triodes to clip even more - similarly to how one stacks OD pedals and the 1st one causes the rest to go mental.
I agree. I think the notch is also audible because there's a jump when you reach max volume potential of the preamp tubes. It's all just more clipping after that. I shall henceforth refer to that phenomenon as "The Notch".

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