Different Technique With Orange Amps?

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adkguy07
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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by adkguy07 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:39 pm

11tonylevin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:12 pm
this is a very interesting thread. I have had my own sort of "revelation" playing Orange amps. First, they do not forgive sloppy playing with ghost notes. More importantly, I observed that playing some open chords, a D in particular always sounded out of tune if letting it ring. Same chord, same guitar, different amp and it was better/ok. This opened up an entire dialog on tuning and guitar imperfections. Ended up that for it to sound correct, I tuned my guitar to the notes on the 3rd fret instead of open tuning. I had noticed that the 3 notes in the D chord were all slightly sharp, by varying amounts when tuned open. The only conclusion I could draw is that the Orange amps produce such rich and plentiful harmonics that once these are all unleashed simultaneously on a hard strummed D chord for example, they could impact what your ear will hear if one or more notes is sharp, even by little. So this led me to be mindful of tuning for certain songs or, even to watch the strumming intensity to minimize the harmonics effect. My conclusion then is that these amps really authenticate what you feed them, kind of garbage in garbage out. So definitely an experience having switched from Marshall/Blackstar to Orange.
I play through a RV 50 MKIII by the way with a custom shop telecaster, set neck , 2 SD Antiquity Humbuckers, configured exactly like a lespaul. If I switch to my Godin with Loller El Rayo pickups, the effect is even more pronounced.
tony

I agree with what you have noted. I've spent a lot of time with the tuning on my 2 Les Pauls. The other factor for me is getting the guitars' pickups adjusted just so to take advantage of my Dark Terror's harmonics and (when I hear it) the chime factors. VOX is the only other make of amp that I hear something similar. My gain knob is usually set between 10 to 11 o'clock and more susstinctly 10:30. Using the right volume and e.q. levels seems to be where the Orange tone starts to happen for me.

The other factors are accurate and deliberate playing technique. That helps when choosing those simplified chords and intervals that I wrote about above. I keep mentioning Tim Sult of Clutch who often chooses Orange amps on stage. True, he can do the same tones with other amps, but my point is that his simplified playing brings out the best tones for the song or groove that the band is in.


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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by beninma » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:01 pm

11tonylevin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:12 pm
this is a very interesting thread. I have had my own sort of "revelation" playing Orange amps. First, they do not forgive sloppy playing with ghost notes. More importantly, I observed that playing some open chords, a D in particular always sounded out of tune if letting it ring. Same chord, same guitar, different amp and it was better/ok. This opened up an entire dialog on tuning and guitar imperfections. Ended up that for it to sound correct, I tuned my guitar to the notes on the 3rd fret instead of open tuning. I had noticed that the 3 notes in the D chord were all slightly sharp, by varying amounts when tuned open. The only conclusion I could draw is that the Orange amps produce such rich and plentiful harmonics that once these are all unleashed simultaneously on a hard strummed D chord for example, they could impact what your ear will hear if one or more notes is sharp, even by little. So this led me to be mindful of tuning for certain songs or, even to watch the strumming intensity to minimize the harmonics effect. My conclusion then is that these amps really authenticate what you feed them, kind of garbage in garbage out. So definitely an experience having switched from Marshall/Blackstar to Orange.
I play through a RV 50 MKIII by the way with a custom shop telecaster, set neck , 2 SD Antiquity Humbuckers, configured exactly like a lespaul. If I switch to my Godin with Loller El Rayo pickups, the effect is even more pronounced.
tony
That is an interesting observation. I've been struggling with Open D chords & tone with my setup. Specifically with passages where you hit an Open D in between the beats on an upstroke. I have a Tele, with the bridge pickup there is obviously a lot of treble happening, strumming up on that Open D can get a lot of searing treble & the harmonics you are talking about. This is certainly something that can be trickier with any dirt on the amp, but there are plenty of songs where I feel like I might want to strum them that way with some dirt rather than really clean.

Sometimes in that case I might think I want to roll the tone back on the guitar.. but that tends to sound muddy pretty quick with this kind of stuff. And if you switch over to a power chord or something you immediately want that treble back.

I have been experimenting with lighter strumming like you said, but yesterday for the heck of it I decided I'd strum them harder than usual. I am really on the fence, I think sometimes with these it's actually better to hit the guitar pretty hard.. maybe because it sounds like the fundamentals overwhelm the harmonics when you strum harder.

I have actually been feeling like there's a lot of technique here.. it was kind of on my list of stuff to discuss with my teacher.

A compressor seems like it can be helpful here too FWIW, can't say I have a solution there but I have a Kongpressor and it definitely can change how this issue manifests.

Flip side is you arpeggiate that Open D with gain and it'll make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up those harmonics sound so good.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by adkguy07 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 pm

beninma wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:01 pm
11tonylevin wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:12 pm
this is a very interesting thread. I have had my own sort of "revelation" playing Orange amps. First, they do not forgive sloppy playing with ghost notes. More importantly, I observed that playing some open chords, a D in particular always sounded out of tune if letting it ring. Same chord, same guitar, different amp and it was better/ok. This opened up an entire dialog on tuning and guitar imperfections. Ended up that for it to sound correct, I tuned my guitar to the notes on the 3rd fret instead of open tuning. I had noticed that the 3 notes in the D chord were all slightly sharp, by varying amounts when tuned open. The only conclusion I could draw is that the Orange amps produce such rich and plentiful harmonics that once these are all unleashed simultaneously on a hard strummed D chord for example, they could impact what your ear will hear if one or more notes is sharp, even by little. So this led me to be mindful of tuning for certain songs or, even to watch the strumming intensity to minimize the harmonics effect. My conclusion then is that these amps really authenticate what you feed them, kind of garbage in garbage out. So definitely an experience having switched from Marshall/Blackstar to Orange.
I play through a RV 50 MKIII by the way with a custom shop telecaster, set neck , 2 SD Antiquity Humbuckers, configured exactly like a lespaul. If I switch to my Godin with Loller El Rayo pickups, the effect is even more pronounced.
tony
That is an interesting observation. I've been struggling with Open D chords & tone with my setup. Specifically with passages where you hit an Open D in between the beats on an upstroke. I have a Tele, with the bridge pickup there is obviously a lot of treble happening, strumming up on that Open D can get a lot of searing treble & the harmonics you are talking about. This is certainly something that can be trickier with any dirt on the amp, but there are plenty of songs where I feel like I might want to strum them that way with some dirt rather than really clean.

Sometimes in that case I might think I want to roll the tone back on the guitar.. but that tends to sound muddy pretty quick with this kind of stuff. And if you switch over to a power chord or something you immediately want that treble back.

I have been experimenting with lighter strumming like you said, but yesterday for the heck of it I decided I'd strum them harder than usual. I am really on the fence, I think sometimes with these it's actually better to hit the guitar pretty hard.. maybe because it sounds like the fundamentals overwhelm the harmonics when you strum harder.

I have actually been feeling like there's a lot of technique here.. it was kind of on my list of stuff to discuss with my teacher.

A compressor seems like it can be helpful here too FWIW, can't say I have a solution there but I have a Kongpressor and it definitely can change how this issue manifests.

Flip side is you arpeggiate that Open D with gain and it'll make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up those harmonics sound so good.
How to both of you use your pick? Are you a pick-only type of player? For many years, I've been flatpick and two fingers, using both nail and sometimes the fleshy tip of my middle and ring fingers.
By doing so for such a long time now, I instinctively feel what technique will bring out the harmonics
when I need to and (simultaneously) this type of playing means you can control treble without touching the guitar tone knob. Try it....slowly, and you'll quickly see for yourself. The fleshy tip of the finger can sort mute the sharp treble spikes you get by using too much and too heavy pick action.

The other factor I think about is whether my guitar is in tune over the entire neck; not just in one fingerboard area. You can p.m. me for how I go about this. It takes too much space to put in here.


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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by NB__England » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:44 pm

It seems that when using Orange amps the manufacturer champions their use of "skid runners" on the base of their cabs. This induces a connection with the floor which enhances the tonal characteristics of the amp. However, the advice I was given by the very moderator of this forum when I questioned the tone of Orange amps per se was "have you raised your cab off the floor?" Suggestive that it may sound better if there is no contact with the floor.
A tad confusing, does anybody have a definitive answer or is it as muddy as a TH30 without a parametric eq?
Seriously, for those considering buying Orange, how do they sound at their best? What style of music should you play to get the best out of these amps?
Orange TH30 Head
Orange Rocker 15
2 - 2x12ppc Open back

adkguy07
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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by adkguy07 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:50 pm

I think opinions vary about where the cabs should be located. The ribs on the bottom of some speaker cabs supposedly ensure better contact with the surface the cab is on. I have the PPC112 cab, but it's on a stand 14” to 15” off of the floor and pitched upwards at 14 degrees. I like my speakers not on the floor, but up a ways so that I can hear it better. Otherwise, it becomes all low frequencies and the PPC112 being a bit directional, I would miss most of the higher frequencies.

As far as the best type of music for Orange amps goes, I think it better left to your imagination. Most of the music I hear using Orange amps is pretty much Rock and Metal and used in a band setting. Depending on your guitar skills and imagination, you can get a number of sounds from most modern amps, Orange included. The cabs now on the market that feature two 12” speakers stacked over each other intrigue me as being perhaps the best of a floor mounted cab that doesn't sound like it's on the floor. If I were playing out, that configuration would be something I'd be testing out right now.


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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by bclaire » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:35 am

My old original band was a Marshall JTM-45 fueled guitar sound. My next band was all Orange - and in our recordings, I used both my AD140TC through vintage 4X12 as well as my AD30TC combo. My cover band is me with Orange AD30TC and I am able to really get some great guitar sounds for all of the songs we do. I don't change my amp settings, just go with my favorite setting.

However, when I recently revisited some of my original songs, I felt like some of the chords lacked definition through my Orange. I'm not starting a new band to play them again (sadly) but I wonder if I would be able to be happy with my Oranges on these songs if I did.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by adkguy07 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 am

bclaire wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:35 am
My old original band was a Marshall JTM-45 fueled guitar sound. My next band was all Orange - and in our recordings, I used both my AD140TC through vintage 4X12 as well as my AD30TC combo. My cover band is me with Orange AD30TC and I am able to really get some great guitar sounds for all of the songs we do. I don't change my amp settings, just go with my favorite setting.

However, when I recently revisited some of my original songs, I felt like some of the chords lacked definition through my Orange. I'm not starting a new band to play them again (sadly) but I wonder if I would be able to be happy with my Oranges on these songs if I did.
Interesting discovery. I cannot see myself playing strictly Country songs, Pop songs, etc on my Dark Terror. There are better toned amps for those. Of course the AD Series is quite a bit different than Orange's Terror amp, but I'm thinking Orange suits music that calls for gainy guitar sounds.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by Les Paul Lover » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:41 am

adkguy07 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:32 am
Of course the AD Series is quite a bit different than Orange's Terror amp, but I'm thinking Orange suits music that calls for gainy guitar sounds.

adkguy07
That's because you know the dark terror only.

Don't get me wrong.... Orange does high gain really well, and had filth to die for, but between the cleans of my Rockerverb,Rocker, and AD15, I associate Oranges with anything.... from clean Jazz to metal.
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, AD5, PPC212
Past Orange: Orange AD30TC Combo, Tiny Terror

Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by PBA » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:03 pm

I might be misunderstanding the OP’s concerns but the thread seems to be focusing on musical matters not really related to Orange.
1. You do need to play guitar differently with high gain to how you can play with lower gain.
2. Most recognised techniques for high gain involve a lot of palm muting (or other muting).
3. High gain is good for single note lines and rhythmic chord work. It’s not particularly used for chord melody and, to my mind, that’s where the more complex chords become useful.
4. Styles of music using effectively drone notes are not often played with high gain.
I’ve not experienced Orange amps being any worse in respect of the above than other types. The OP has though, so I would be interested to know a little more about what other amps have been used for the comparison.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by adkguy07 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:58 pm

PBA wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:03 pm
I might be misunderstanding the OP’s concerns but the thread seems to be focusing on musical matters not really related to Orange.
1. You do need to play guitar differently with high gain to how you can play with lower gain.
2. Most recognised techniques for high gain involve a lot of palm muting (or other muting).
3. High gain is good for single note lines and rhythmic chord work. It’s not particularly used for chord melody and, to my mind, that’s where the more complex chords become useful.
4. Styles of music using effectively drone notes are not often played with high gain.
I’ve not experienced Orange amps being any worse in respect of the above than other types. The OP has though, so I would be interested to know a little more about what other amps have been used for the comparison.
I probably should have written my original question with respect to: Do you play your Orange amp
any differently that say, a Marshall, VOX, Bugera, Engl, amps with similar circuits. In my case, Orange and the Dark Terror were quite a culture change for me. I was coming from the Fender, Peavey territory; never paying much attention to the higher gain amps with more modern tones. First explorations with the Dark Terror had me wondering about my abilities at ever getting a really good gain'd-up tone out of this amp. Now, after a year plus of using this Orange, I've become very comfortable with it and wondering if some Orange users encountered a similar experience (even coming from using another make of a gainy amp). In the past, I've been able to wrangle good tones from just about any amp that I played, but gainy amps were a mystery to me....up until now.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by caldurham » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:27 pm

it sounds like to me that some of the things being described in these posts have nothing to do with the amp itself and everything to do with a guitar that is not intonated correctly. also seems like some of the descriptions are talking about overtones and harmonics being produced by the strings either behind the nut or in front of the bridge which will be brought out more with a high gainer.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by Jigsisme » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:35 am

The DT is special to me, it made me understand what I have been missing all these years by not having a quality amp. It'll absolutely crush with any cab, I personally like running 2 different 2x12s but as I look over at it right now...got it running a 4x12 and a 2x12. It is Friday nite.
I will admit, I had the great postman drop off a goodie today that would work in my favor and the first amp I wanted to try it on was the DT. It worked as expected and now I'll put this 15w bundle of joy thru some new territory. The CR120 will love the new addition as well!
EVH 50w looks all lonely not plugged up, lol!

Did you learn anything from me, probably not. I just enjoyed what everyone was saying and felt like I would throw my 2 brain cell's opinions in as well.

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Re: Different Technique With Orange Amps?

Post by PBA » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:17 am

adkguy07 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:58 pm
I probably should have written my original question with respect to: Do you play your Orange amp
any differently that say, a Marshall, VOX, Bugera, Engl, amps with similar circuits. In my case, Orange and the Dark Terror were quite a culture change for me. I was coming from the Fender, Peavey territory; never paying much attention to the higher gain amps with more modern tones. First explorations with the Dark Terror had me wondering about my abilities at ever getting a really good gain'd-up tone out of this amp. Now, after a year plus of using this Orange, I've become very comfortable with it and wondering if some Orange users encountered a similar experience (even coming from using another make of a gainy amp). In the past, I've been able to wrangle good tones from just about any amp that I played, but gainy amps were a mystery to me....up until now.

adkguy07
So, the idea of a rock guitar sound I have in my head is pretty much Gibson humbuckers into older Marshall amps. However, I've never managed to get THAT sound using that kit. Every Marshall I've used has left me frustrated because it's close but not close enough! Genuinely high gain isn't really my thing but I owned a Mesa Boogie and the cascading gain stages certainly moved close to High gain. I always felt that the Boogie forced my playing in a direction I didn't much like. Fender produce so many amps it's not really possible to class them all the same. I found the Deluxe to be good fun and quite flexible but the gain needed to come from pedals and pedal gain isn't quite what I was looking for.
I came to Orange with memories of an old (I think) OR80 which used to live in a second hand music store when I was a kid. Pre-internet, I'd never heard of Orange but I liked the weirdness of an amp that wasn't black and it sounded thick, woolly and enveloping. I tried several Oranges and there was a little of that sound in all of them. I settled on the OR15 because I don't need anything louder and it provided the full range of gain I could ever want. Several years later, I don't regret it. I find that for me, it just works in the way I want an amp to work. It can get fizzy but a little more volume on the amp and a little less on the guitar and it's gone. Provided the gain isn't stupidly high, I get good note definition and just enough note attack that it doesn't sound mushy.

So, to answer your question; I don't play it any differently but I do find it works better for me than any of my previous amps. I'm absolutely sure some folk would really struggle to get their sounds with my amp but that's cool - There are plenty of choices.

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