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Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:25 am
by Ronnie Robinson
About a month ago I picked up a Rocker 30 combo (the third I've owned) which had been sat in a studio for years left unloved as the owner said he wasn't getting on with it. The valves had not been changed for years but still sounded good so I bought it for a steal.
I bought some new JJ el34s and fitted some tungsol pre-amp tubes which have had a little use and..... The sound was not right, muffled, bland like a blanket been thrown over it, tried it at a couple of practices and something definitely not right. Strange .......I've used tungsol pre-amp tubes in another Orange Amp and they sounded Ok but generally prefer EHX but never used JJ El34s , maybe it's the combination of both together? That I'm not liking.
Anyway luckily found a pair of Harma Retro Cryo El34s in my tube drawer which I've used for about six months and swapped some Ehx pre Amp tubes in from my Ad30 and Wow that a difference....thick, dynamic and powerful....
Great amps these.....
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:50 am
by Les Paul Lover
Funny that.
I had no issues with the JJ EL34 I had. I'm keeping them as working spares as I bought some Tung sols EL34 to try out anyway.
They sound a bit better, but only marginally, and I cannot tell if the difference is down the the JJ EL34 being used some.
As for preamp valves.....
I've tried JJ, Harma 7025 (I believe rebranded EH), and some NOS RFT ECC83.
The JJ is great at keeping high gain squeal down. However, it's less sweet than the Harma /EH, that one has a lot more high end, and in low gain /low volume settings, that's a clear winner. But being the gain and volume up, and it's squeal city.
My real winner was my NOS RFT ECC83. They aren't particularly expensive if you buy them under one of the rebrand names, and they have a a stout, really full signal. High end, low end, there's more of it and everything seems more defined.
Funny, I used to be in the camp valves don't matter much..... but that's all changed.
JJ ECC83 aren't bad valve at all. They actually probably are the best preamp valve for high gain application, as their short plate design is excellent against microphony.
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 pm
by fiveightandten
Sometimes certain tube sets are just out of range for a cathode biased amp. It doesn't necessarily mean that every one of that particular brand will be bad. But every set sounds a little different, and you will get sets that just don't sound good in the amp.
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:47 pm
by Ronnie Robinson
Yep, I've used d JJ pre-amp tubes and el84s in the past and they sounded good I guess at some point I'll need to put the JJ el34s back in and try them with the EHX pre-amp tubes.
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:09 pm
by D|C|M|E
This problem is the speaker. If that's the stock Celestion Vintage 30 in there and the guy said he wasn't getting on with the amp and that it sat in the studio unused for years, that means no one ever played the pile of poop out of that guy to get that V30 broken in. They have to be played loud and long to crack them into their normal response. Muffled and bland is exactly how I have described my PPC412 loaded with V30's until that fateful day when they first broke in. It was night and day.
Moreover a single speaker amp will always sound less "clear" over all than an amp running two or more speakers, in my opinion but if you're comfortable with the single 12" format overall, you probably already dig the intended sound of it. It really sounds like that V30 never got broken in. That has to happen before that amp is going to sound "right" or even close to its intended tonality. Take it from someone who learned the HARD WAY to what extent V30's absolutely NEED to be broken in, in order to sound like they are meant to sound. I never would have believed the extent to which this fact matters but it is the heart of the matter. Play the living hell out of it loud. Play passages across the entire scale of the fretboard and change up the EQ settings and play each setting for extended durations. Do this at very high volume. Crank that natural channel til you get that power tube breakup. That tone will likely have a much higher impact on the speaker's response pulse to get that break in going than the drive channel will with a lot of drive but also set the drive pretty low and crank the volume. Once you've done that for a while, then turn the drive up past noon and past 3:00 to get the speaker accustomed to voicing those tones as well.
I know it sounds like a lot of work but Oranges are absolutely awesome once the speaker is living up to its full frequency response potential.
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:56 am
by Ronnie Robinson
D|C|M|E wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:09 pm
This problem is the speaker. If that's the stock Celestion Vintage 30 in there and the guy said he wasn't getting on with the amp and that it sat in the studio unused for years, that means no one ever played the pile of poop out of that guy to get that V30 broken in. They have to be played loud and long to crack them into their normal response. Muffled and bland is exactly how I have described my PPC412 loaded with V30's until that fateful day when they first broke in. It was night and day.
Moreover a single speaker amp will always sound less "clear" over all than an amp running two or more speakers, in my opinion but if you're comfortable with the single 12" format overall, you probably already dig the intended sound of it. It really sounds like that V30 never got broken in. That has to happen before that amp is going to sound "right" or even close to its intended tonality. Take it from someone who learned the HARD WAY to what extent V30's absolutely NEED to be broken in, in order to sound like they are meant to sound. I never would have believed the extent to which this fact matters but it is the heart of the matter. Play the living hell out of it loud. Play passages across the entire scale of the fretboard and change up the EQ settings and play each setting for extended durations. Do this at very high volume. Crank that natural channel til you get that power tube breakup. That tone will likely have a much higher impact on the speaker's response pulse to get that break in going than the drive channel will with a lot of drive but also set the drive pretty low and crank the volume. Once you've done that for a while, then turn the drive up past noon and past 3:00 to get the speaker accustomed to voicing those tones as well.
I know it sounds like a lot of work but Oranges are absolutely awesome once the speaker is living up to its full frequency response potential.
Hi, it's not the speaker. the speaker is well broken in. I've owned 3 of these before and owned quite a few V30s.Change of tubes sorted it out.
Re: Rocker 30 ...Muffled and bland... WHAT!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:17 am
by D|C|M|E
Ronnie Robinson wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:56 am
D|C|M|E wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:09 pm
This problem is the speaker. If that's the stock Celestion Vintage 30 in there and the guy said he wasn't getting on with the amp and that it sat in the studio unused for years, that means no one ever played the pile of poop out of that guy to get that V30 broken in. They have to be played loud and long to crack them into their normal response. Muffled and bland is exactly how I have described my PPC412 loaded with V30's until that fateful day when they first broke in. It was night and day.
Moreover a single speaker amp will always sound less "clear" over all than an amp running two or more speakers, in my opinion but if you're comfortable with the single 12" format overall, you probably already dig the intended sound of it. It really sounds like that V30 never got broken in. That has to happen before that amp is going to sound "right" or even close to its intended tonality. Take it from someone who learned the HARD WAY to what extent V30's absolutely NEED to be broken in, in order to sound like they are meant to sound. I never would have believed the extent to which this fact matters but it is the heart of the matter. Play the living hell out of it loud. Play passages across the entire scale of the fretboard and change up the EQ settings and play each setting for extended durations. Do this at very high volume. Crank that natural channel til you get that power tube breakup. That tone will likely have a much higher impact on the speaker's response pulse to get that break in going than the drive channel will with a lot of drive but also set the drive pretty low and crank the volume. Once you've done that for a while, then turn the drive up past noon and past 3:00 to get the speaker accustomed to voicing those tones as well.
I know it sounds like a lot of work but Oranges are absolutely awesome once the speaker is living up to its full frequency response potential.
Hi, it's not the speaker. the speaker is well broken in. I've owned 3 of these before and owned quite a few V30s.Change of tubes sorted it out.
My bad. I must have missed that part of your original post. Glad its all in order.