Orange CR 20 RT vs Scuffham S-Gear 2

[reylax3]

Hey guys,
I've been wondering:

How does the Orange CR 20 RT with its integrated Cab-Simulator compare to the Scuffham S-Gear 2 plugin? Does the integrated Cabsim also simulate something like power amp distortion (on the Orange CR 20)?
Did anybody try both the amp and the plugin thoroughly and how did it go?

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance!

[Jondog]

Bit of an odd thing to compare.

[Gray]

Does the integrated Cabsim also simulate something like power amp distortion (on the Orange CR 20)?

A cabsim simulates exactly what the name implies, a speaker cabinet. Nothing more.

[Rlw59]

The Crush "cab sim" is just a treble fiter that cuts everything above 5~7KHz.

Below that, it doesn't alter the frequency response to mimic any specific speaker loaded into any specific cab. It doesn't change the frequency response as the signal level goes up. It doesn't add compression as the signal level goes up. It doesn't add cone break-up at high levels. It doesn't simulate mic placement or mic response.

It's just a simple, basic way to make distorted guitar not sound horrific through headphones or when recording.

It's usable and you might be satisfied with it. But any good plug-in cab sim or IR is way more sophisticated and will sound more like you're actually recording a speaker cab.

I know zero about the Scuffham. It may just be a step above the Crush cab sim, or it may be leagues above.

A really good cab sim will give you options of specific virtual speakers, specific virtual cabs, specific virtual mics and virtual mic placement.
--------------------
But that's putting the cart before the horse. Because then the speaker sound will be much better than the amp sound.

The Crushes are thoroughly decent -- for inexpensive solid-state practice amps. If you want to record your practice sessions so you can listen to them and evaluate what you need to work on, the headphone out is adequate. If you're working out arrangements or demos, the headphone out is adequate.

If you're considering a plug-in because you want to create finished, polished music for other people to enjoy listening to, maybe consider a plug-in amp modeler.

[Jondog]

The Crush "cab sim" is just a treble fiter that cuts everything above 5~7KHz.

Below that, it doesn't alter the frequency response to mimic any specific speaker loaded into any specific cab. It doesn't change the frequency response as the signal level goes up. It doesn't add compression as the signal level goes up. It doesn't add cone break-up at high levels. It doesn't simulate mic placement or mic response.

It's just a simple, basic way to make distorted guitar not sound horrific through headphones or when recording.

It's usable and you might be satisfied with it. But any good plug-in cab sim or IR is way more sophisticated and will sound more like you're actually recording a speaker cab.

I know zero about the Scuffham. It may just be a step above the Crush cab sim, or it may be leagues above.

A really good cab sim will give you options of specific virtual speakers, specific virtual cabs, specific virtual mics and virtual mic placement.
--------------------
But that's putting the cart before the horse. Because then the speaker sound will be much better than the amp sound.

The Crushes are thoroughly decent -- for inexpensive solid-state practice amps. If you want to record your practice sessions so you can listen to them and evaluate what you need to work on, the headphone out is adequate. If you're working out arrangements or demos, the headphone out is adequate.

If you're considering a plug-in because you want to create finished, polished music for other people to enjoy listening to, maybe consider a plug-in amp modeler.

Appearantly Scuffham is a computer plug-in. Way different.

[Rlw59]

Yes, as the last paragraph in my tl;dr post indicated, I gathered that it's a plug-in. I just don't know if it's a good plug-in, a great plug-in, or just something really basic and simplistic.

For all I know about computer recording products it might just be a treble filter like the Crush headphone out, and not something that emulates any real cab.

[Gray]

The Crush "cab sim" is just a treble fiter that cuts everything above 5~7KHz.

Below that, it doesn't alter the frequency response to mimic any specific speaker loaded into any specific cab.

Sooo is the marketing blurb on the Orange website a lie? Because it mentions a specific cabinet and speaker.

"The headphone/line output includes our new CabSim feature, faithfully emulating the sound of a mic’d Orange 4×12″ cabinet loaded with our flagship Voice of the World speakers"

[Rlw59]

Ah, I read the. CR20RT manual but not the website. My bad for thinking they'd give details in the manual.

Might be a better cab sim than I assumed. Still limited to one emulation with no variable parameters.
---------------------
But it just dawned on me that the headphone jack is the only output, with no way to defeat the built-in cab sim. Running one cab sim into another cab sim will do weird funky things. Like micing up a real guitar speaker and then playing it back through a different guitar speaker.

If it had a straight line-out or an fx loop then a plug-in might be a better option. But as it stands you're pretty much forced to use the CR20RT's built-in cab sim.

[reylax3]

I just realised that the power amp distortion question makes no sense, so forgive me for that. I know much more today than I did yesterday when it comes to that.

@Rlw59: Thanks for all the info!

Yes, cabsims are out of the question for this one, and I already excluded those, because, as you say, there is no way to bypass the internal cabsim. That's why I've been drawn to just go "back" to software and play around with Scuffham. It's got 5 amp simulations, several cab simulations with different configurations etc etc..I also like the fact that it's not as bloated as some other plugins are.

I guess another option is to get an Orange head and combine it with a decent cabsimulator (for example the Hughes&Kettner Redbox 5)? It's probably a more expensive option, but may give me more versatility. Has anybody tried that combination? It's a nice way of sticking to hardware, but still not having to deal with cabs, mics etc...(and saving me from my neighbours)

[Jondog]

Right now I think the way to go is with IR cab simulators. That Mooer Radar looks pretty cool and affordable compared to bigger units like Torpedo. Sounds good too. I’ve been looking into it. I also don’t think the crush “faithfully” emulates a PPC412 unless it does use an impulse response, which it likely does not. Really cool how IR’s are created and work.

[bclaire]

For me, the best cab simulator is the discontinued Marshall SE-100.

[reylax3]

I'll check those out! Scuffham also has some IR-cabsims implemented and some can be imported. Ownhammer, Redwirez and a few others offer collections of that stuff.

The Tubemeister 18 looks interesting, too. It's an amp + integrated Redbox DI Box/Cabsim. I'm not really a big fan of its look (guess I'm oldschool), but it's pretty affordable.
Torpedo also sell their cabsim separately as a stompbox.

[Jondog]

Torpedo is probably the best if the price suits. You can create your own cab sims with it as well which is nice if you have a favourite cab and mic combination, or room sound. Pete Thorn has a good demo of that
https://youtu.be/i770M9pM0_k
I’ve used solid state cab sims, Red Box, Mesa Cab Clone and a Surprise Sound Lab unit. They’re OK but nothing compared to IR simulators. Solid state devices are just a bunch of high and low pass filters to shape the sound, not all that different from the tone knob on your guitar which is why they don’t require external power. Never tried or heard the SE100 Billy mentions, but it looks more advanced than a simple load box/cab sim and is powered so probably has much better eq which is definitely a better option. IR’s are frequency images of an actual speaker movement and how it reacts in a cab captured by a specific mic/mic placement.

[reylax3]

Torpedo is probably the best if the price suits. You can create your own cab sims with it as well which is nice if you have a favourite cab and mic combination, or room sound. Pete Thorn has a good demo of that
https://youtu.be/i770M9pM0_k
I’ve used solid state cab sims, Red Box, Mesa Cab Clone and a Surprise Sound Lab unit. They’re OK but nothing compared to IR simulators. Solid state devices are just a bunch of high and low pass filters to shape the sound, not all that different from the tone knob on your guitar which is why they don’t require external power. Never tried or heard the SE100 Billy mentions, but it looks more advanced than a simple load box/cab sim and is powered so probably has much better eq which is definitely a better option. IR’s are frequency images of an actual speaker movement and how it reacts in a cab captured by a specific mic/mic placement.

Wow, this truly does sound awesome! Just watched that vid and really feel like saving up for this thing now.. Gotta love modern technology. <3

Edit: Do you guys know of any cheap solutions for reactive loads (cheaper than the Suhr)? And have any of you guys tried to combine real amps with reactive loads and software cabsims (IR, for example as part of a plugin like Scuffham..how would that compare to the Wall of Sound by Two Notes?)?
And are those even necessary (reactive/resistive loads) for solid state amps like the Orange CR 120 or the Marshall MG100 HDFX? Both seem to require a load from what I've heard, but not sure if it's the same as with tube amps.