OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

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yossarian83
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by yossarian83 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:46 pm

Gladmarr wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:18 am
Have you looked into the mod that yossarian83 made to create a 20 watt OR120? Seems like it might be worth exploring. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51492
I don't know what part of the world Fughawz hails from. If not the United States, he/she might not even have to do the simple transformer primary mod before installing the 6V6's.

Just as an update to that thread, I never had a tube issue... ran them for about 12 mos before I installed a pair of NOS Mullard XF2 EL34's (just to see what all the fuss is about). The Mullards are still in the amp 8)

Snapjaw79
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by Snapjaw79 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:12 pm

That's good info on the attenuators, I have been contemplating one But never sure which one to get. A Variac can also get good results. Pulling tubes really does depend on the amp. My Laney supergroup sounds great with 2 tubes. I also had a master volume added that works really well. The or120 definitely has its own sound that you really won't find in an amp with less wattage. I recorded with a 70's or80 and an old Les paul with p90's and go-go-gadget if it wasn't one of the best tones I've had.
I was really just throwing ideas out there but maybe attenuators is the way to go.
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Fuhgawz
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by Fuhgawz » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:47 am

Hi guys, sorry for the late response. I've been busy and didn't notice that this topic received so many responses since my last visit.

I saw a mention of pulling two tubes. I actually did that once years ago. I noticed that there was hardly any volume difference, but the amp seemed to have less 'balls', so after a few months I put them back.

Now I'm considering attenuators, as was recommended here multiple times. Looking at 120watt+ ones. I'm thinking of Koch Loadbox 120, which is from a company in my home country of the Netherlands. It's not very versatile though. No knobs, just jacks. SPL reducer was recommended. I can get that from Thomann. I also found a Weber Mass 200, which looks good on paper, but I cannot find a local dealer and importing would be very expensive.

Last weekend I played at a stage in a metal bar that was so small that the amps weren't even mic'ed. I was asked to turn up instead of down. Imagine that! So now I'm not looking at 30 watt amps anymore. It's either the attenuator, or save more money to fund something like an OR100, which has a built in attenuator. I can't own two €1000+ high wattage amps though. I'm not poor, but I'm not that rich either, and it would be a waste not to use the other.

yossarian83
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by yossarian83 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:18 pm

Fuhgawz wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:47 am
So now I'm not looking at 30 watt amps anymore. It's either the attenuator, or save more money to fund something like an OR100, which has a built in attenuator. I can't own two €1000+ high wattage amps though. I'm not poor, but I'm not that rich either, and it would be a waste not to use the other.
Before you go that far, get a pair of tung sol 6V6GT's and give them a shot. Somewhere on this board is a vid of my amp running that setup to give you an idea of the sound (all crunchy tones, unfortunately). You'll just need to remember to select the 4 ohm tap on the amp and run it into a 16 ohm speaker cab (double impedance for 2 tubes vs 4 and again for 6V6 vs EL34) It may be worth checking your plate voltages beforehand but they should be around 470 vdc, which will work fine.

Fuhgawz
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by Fuhgawz » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:29 pm

Thanks for the suggestion, Yossarian, but I'm really not comfortable performing such modifications. I saw a used SPL Reducer locally and think I'm gonna try that. It's less invasive than modding. The asking price was still a bit high, but perhaps I can persuade him to sell cheaper.

Les Paul Lover
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by Les Paul Lover » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

yossarian83 wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:18 pm
Fuhgawz wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:47 am
So now I'm not looking at 30 watt amps anymore. It's either the attenuator, or save more money to fund something like an OR100, which has a built in attenuator. I can't own two €1000+ high wattage amps though. I'm not poor, but I'm not that rich either, and it would be a waste not to use the other.
Before you go that far, get a pair of tung sol 6V6GT's and give them a shot. Somewhere on this board is a vid of my amp running that setup to give you an idea of the sound (all crunchy tones, unfortunately). You'll just need to remember to select the 4 ohm tap on the amp and run it into a 16 ohm speaker cab (double impedance for 2 tubes vs 4 and again for 6V6 vs EL34) It may be worth checking your plate voltages beforehand but they should be around 470 vdc, which will work fine.

Is it that one???

https://youtu.be/sU7Sy5Xhs40


Could you run it with a quartet of 6v6 too? I assume so?
Ant

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fiveightandten
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by fiveightandten » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

Fuhgawz wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:29 pm
Thanks for the suggestion, Yossarian, but I'm really not comfortable performing such modifications. I saw a used SPL Reducer locally and think I'm gonna try that. It's less invasive than modding. The asking price was still a bit high, but perhaps I can persuade him to sell cheaper.
SPL Reducer is a good sounding attenuator. It shaves a little top end off, like all resistive attenuators, but it's a nice unit. Thomann has some nice pricing on B Stock as well.

6V6 tubes might be worth a try. Though the amp was never designed to run that tube type, so there are some considerations to make, as yossarian83 mentioned. You would need to rebias the amp, at a minimum. So this isn't something that a novice would do without a tech or tech savvy friend to help out.

IMO, there is some level of risk running 6V6's in the amp, especially if you do the power transformer mod and if this is a 90's amp. But if you're careful, this can be done safely.
Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

Is it that one???

https://youtu.be/sU7Sy5Xhs40


Could you run it with a quartet of 6v6 too? I assume so?
I'd like to hear that with the master cranked. Interesting.



Plate voltage on an OR-120 will likely be higher than 470V, the 90's head I've owned run close to 500V (here on US wall voltage, at least). The JJ 6V6S is rated at 500V on the plates and 450V on the screens. That tube will run in an OR-120, and it's what I would pick, personally. It's a bit more beefy sounding than other 6V6s, but has less midrange too. It's a beast of a 6V6 though. 6V6 guys hate them because it doesn't sound or perform like a normal 6V6, which is perfect you want to run it in an OR-120. :lol:
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yossarian83
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by yossarian83 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:47 am

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm


Is it that one???

https://youtu.be/sU7Sy5Xhs40

Could you run it with a quartet of 6v6 too? I assume so?
Yep, thats the one! a quartet would be fine as long as you adjust the impedance switch accordingly.
fiveightandten wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

6V6 tubes might be worth a try. Though the amp was never designed to run that tube type, so there are some considerations to make, as yossarian83 mentioned. You would need to rebias the amp, at a minimum. So this isn't something that a novice would do without a tech or tech savvy friend to help out.

IMO, there is some level of risk running 6V6's in the amp, especially if you do the power transformer mod and if this is a 90's amp. But if you're careful, this can be done safely.

Plate voltage on an OR-120 will likely be higher than 470V, the 90's head I've owned run close to 500V (here on US wall voltage, at least). The JJ 6V6S is rated at 500V on the plates and 450V on the screens. That tube will run in an OR-120, and it's what I would pick, personally. It's a bit more beefy sounding than other 6V6s, but has less midrange too. It's a beast of a 6V6 though. 6V6 guys hate them because it doesn't sound or perform like a normal 6V6, which is perfect you want to run it in an OR-120. :lol:
AFAIK, the 90's OR120 power transformers are the same winds as the 70's. If the input voltage matches what the amp is set for, and the amps components are functioning correctly, the plate voltage will be ~470.

I did some digging and discovered that the line voltage in the Netherlands is 230 vac. swapping the leads on the PT would not be of any benefit in this case.

The safest bet would be to use the 240 voltage tap, which would put your amps internal voltages slightly lower than the factory schematic (probably around 450-460 on the plates). Then all the OP would have to do is get couple of 6V6's and have the amp biased in order to run them. (assuming the impedance switch is adjusted accordingly)

I'd like to try a pair of JJ's.Those review quite well and will be next on my list. However, as long as guitar amps have been running 6v6's, they've been running them outside of their published specs. Nothing new here, same with EL84's, EL34's, etc... you should be fine as long as you don't have 500 plus on the plates running 34's. That would put you well over with the JJ's as they don't pull as much current.

An attenuator is a good option, just much more expensive and may not give the results OP they're looking for. Not to mention, it's one more piece of gear... I really get a kick out of running this historically overwhelming beast around 20 watts and not losing much tone-wise 8)
Lunchbox amps can bite me!
fiveightandten wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

I'd like to hear that with the master cranked. Interesting.
I'll see what I can do :D

yossarian83
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by yossarian83 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:14 am

yossarian83 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:47 am
Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm


Is it that one???

https://youtu.be/sU7Sy5Xhs40

Could you run it with a quartet of 6v6 too? I assume so?
Yep, thats the one! a quartet would be fine as long as you adjust the impedance switch accordingly.
fiveightandten wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

6V6 tubes might be worth a try. Though the amp was never designed to run that tube type, so there are some considerations to make, as yossarian83 mentioned. You would need to rebias the amp, at a minimum. So this isn't something that a novice would do without a tech or tech savvy friend to help out.

IMO, there is some level of risk running 6V6's in the amp, especially if you do the power transformer mod and if this is a 90's amp. But if you're careful, this can be done safely.

Plate voltage on an OR-120 will likely be higher than 470V, the 90's head I've owned run close to 500V (here on US wall voltage, at least). The JJ 6V6S is rated at 500V on the plates and 450V on the screens. That tube will run in an OR-120, and it's what I would pick, personally. It's a bit more beefy sounding than other 6V6s, but has less midrange too. It's a beast of a 6V6 though. 6V6 guys hate them because it doesn't sound or perform like a normal 6V6, which is perfect you want to run it in an OR-120. :lol:
AFAIK, the 90's OR120 power transformers are the same winds as the 70's. If the input voltage matches what the amp is set for, and the amps components are functioning correctly, the plate voltage will be ~470.

I did some digging and discovered that the line voltage in the Netherlands is 230 vac. swapping the leads on the PT would not be of any benefit in this case.

The safest bet would be to use the 240 voltage tap, which would put your amps internal voltages slightly lower than the factory schematic (probably around 450-460 on the plates). Then all the OP would have to do is get couple of 6V6's and have the amp biased in order to run them. (assuming the impedance switch is adjusted accordingly)

I'd like to try a pair of JJ's.Those review quite well and will be next on my list. However, as long as guitar amps have been running 6v6's, they've been running them outside of their published specs. Nothing new here, same with EL84's, EL34's, etc... you should be fine as long as you don't have 500 plus on the plates running 34's. That would put you well over with the JJ's as they don't pull as much current.

An attenuator is a good option, just much more expensive and may not give the results OP they're looking for. Not to mention, it's one more piece of gear. For the record, I had the SPL attenuator back when it was known as Alex's Attenuator... great unit for the price!

I really get a kick out of running this historically overwhelming beast around 20 watts and not losing much tone-wise 8)
Lunchbox amps can bite me!
fiveightandten wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

I'd like to hear that with the master cranked. Interesting.
I'll see what I can do :D

fiveightandten
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by fiveightandten » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:20 am

yossarian83 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:47 am
AFAIK, the 90's OR120 power transformers are the same winds as the 70's. If the input voltage matches what the amp is set for, and the amps components are functioning correctly, the plate voltage will be ~470.

I did some digging and discovered that the line voltage in the Netherlands is 230 vac. swapping the leads on the PT would not be of any benefit in this case.

The safest bet would be to use the 240 voltage tap, which would put your amps internal voltages slightly lower than the factory schematic (probably around 450-460 on the plates). Then all the OP would have to do is get couple of 6V6's and have the amp biased in order to run them. (assuming the impedance switch is adjusted accordingly)

I'd like to try a pair of JJ's.Those review quite well and will be next on my list. However, as long as guitar amps have been running 6v6's, they've been running them outside of their published specs. Nothing new here, same with EL84's, EL34's, etc... you should be fine as long as you don't have 500 plus on the plates running 34's. That would put you well over with the JJ's as they don't pull as much current.

An attenuator is a good option, just much more expensive and may not give the results OP they're looking for. Not to mention, it's one more piece of gear... I really get a kick out of running this historically overwhelming beast around 20 watts and not losing much tone-wise 8)
Lunchbox amps can bite me!
fiveightandten wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:40 am

I'd like to hear that with the master cranked. Interesting.
I'll see what I can do :D
Yes! It's been so long since we talked OR-120/80 around here. :mrgreen:

Most of the 70's amps I've seen have 115V primary taps for US voltage, whereas the 90's amps have a 120V tap. I've owned three 90's heads, and I haven't had any that were in the 470V range, but maybe my wall voltage is high around here.

My last 90's OR-120/80 used to run right around 500V, and my 70's head runs around 515V or so. I can't recall what my current 90's OR-80 is running at...I think it's 485V or so. I'd welcome lower B+, as most EL-34's technically aren't spec'd right for the screen voltages in these amps. They're ok, but still.

Anyways, back to European voltages, that's great that he can just run it off the 240V tap and get some safe voltages. As long as the heaters are ok, he should be fine. It's worth a try, IMO.

You might like the JJ 6V6s. They're beefy and have a lot of low end. I have a Hi-Tone HT30, which is their 30W Hiwatt clone. Rather than go with an EL-84 power section, they picked the beefiest most punchy sounding small bottle tube they could find and went with the JJ 6V6S. They're even larger, physically, than normal 6V6s. Check them out some time.

Do up a video of it running full tilt if you can! I'm interested in this. I've been running mine with the Fryette Power station and it sounds glorious. But, as you said, it's one more piece of gear to lug around. It would be great to get the sound I want out of a pair of 6V6's. Maybe I'll yank them out of the Hi-Tone to try them. I fear my plate voltage might be too high, but it's probably worth a try.

This got me in the OR-80 mood...I just jammed on mine for over an hour. These amps are absolutely savage compared to the new Oranges. The natural overdrive on them is just vicious, then you can roll back and get the great prickly edge of breakup. Truly unique sounding amps. I'm using this thing at our gig this weekend. I was going to bring the AD30, but this OR-80 sounds too awesome.

-Nick
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yossarian83
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by yossarian83 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:05 pm

fiveightandten wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:20 am
Yes! It's been so long since we talked OR-120/80 around here. :mrgreen:

Most of the 70's amps I've seen have 115V primary taps for US voltage, whereas the 90's amps have a 120V tap. I've owned three 90's heads, and I haven't had any that were in the 470V range, but maybe my wall voltage is high around here.

My last 90's OR-120/80 used to run right around 500V, and my 70's head runs around 515V or so. I can't recall what my current 90's OR-80 is running at...I think it's 485V or so. I'd welcome lower B+, as most EL-34's technically aren't spec'd right for the screen voltages in these amps. They're ok, but still.

Anyways, back to European voltages, that's great that he can just run it off the 240V tap and get some safe voltages. As long as the heaters are ok, he should be fine. It's worth a try, IMO.

You might like the JJ 6V6s. They're beefy and have a lot of low end. I have a Hi-Tone HT30, which is their 30W Hiwatt clone. Rather than go with an EL-84 power section, they picked the beefiest most punchy sounding small bottle tube they could find and went with the JJ 6V6S. They're even larger, physically, than normal 6V6s. Check them out some time.

Do up a video of it running full tilt if you can! I'm interested in this. I've been running mine with the Fryette Power station and it sounds glorious. But, as you said, it's one more piece of gear to lug around. It would be great to get the sound I want out of a pair of 6V6's. Maybe I'll yank them out of the Hi-Tone to try them. I fear my plate voltage might be too high, but it's probably worth a try.

This got me in the OR-80 mood...I just jammed on mine for over an hour. These amps are absolutely savage compared to the new Oranges. The natural overdrive on them is just vicious, then you can roll back and get the great prickly edge of breakup. Truly unique sounding amps. I'm using this thing at our gig this weekend. I was going to bring the AD30, but this OR-80 sounds too awesome.

-Nick
I know, right? It seems like we used to talk these amps non-stop back on the vintage amps forum and here, then one day it suddenly just stopped. :(

My understanding of the 90's amps is that they just relabeled the 115 tap to say 120 and kept everything else the same internally (I think maybe there's more power supply filtering in the 90's amps). That may be wrong but most of the ones I've seen/heard reports of had very similar plate voltages to the 70's amps. Long ago I used a variac to bring my line voltage down to 115 vac, afterward, the amp lined up quite well with the schematic. I always assumed any differences between 70's and 90's were likely due to component drift.

I've ordered a pair of JJ's from Doug's Tubes. When I get them, I'll see if I can't make a video. When I made the initial video, I tried to crank it more but the camera/phone couldn't handle it. :roll:

I'd really like to try one of those fryette power stations. I love the idea of having a post-amp effects loop for time based effects.

fiveightandten
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Re: OR120 clean sound at lower volumes for small stages

Post by fiveightandten » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:02 pm

yossarian83 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:05 pm
I know, right? It seems like we used to talk these amps non-stop back on the vintage amps forum and here, then one day it suddenly just stopped. :(

My understanding of the 90's amps is that they just relabeled the 115 tap to say 120 and kept everything else the same internally (I think maybe there's more power supply filtering in the 90's amps). That may be wrong but most of the ones I've seen/heard reports of had very similar plate voltages to the 70's amps. Long ago I used a variac to bring my line voltage down to 115 vac, afterward, the amp lined up quite well with the schematic. I always assumed any differences between 70's and 90's were likely due to component drift.

I've ordered a pair of JJ's from Doug's Tubes. When I get them, I'll see if I can't make a video. When I made the initial video, I tried to crank it more but the camera/phone couldn't handle it. :roll:

I'd really like to try one of those fryette power stations. I love the idea of having a post-amp effects loop for time based effects.
It looks like the Plexi Palace boards are finally gone. I tried to look up something the other day and they aren't even there anymore. End of an era. :?

I wasn't aware of the 90's primary winding not matching the labelling. Interesting. I know the heater voltage in my 70's amp is way high, but it's ok in my 90's amp. Maybe the early 70's amps are outliers, I have a GRO100 from '71 or so.

Good luck with the JJ's. I bet you'll like them in an Orange. I'm all ears if you can make another video. If it has some mic clipping in it, so be it. :lol:

The Power Station is fantastic. These days, I really can't gig without it. I play in bars and small clubs, and they just don't want the volume, and the little amps just don't sound the same. The PS is expensive, but it does what they say it does. It's the only attenuator I've ever been impressed with.

FYI, I started an OR-120 thread to nerd out, but no-one was interested. Post up there if you want!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55823

-Nick
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