RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

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Les Paul Lover
Duke of Orange
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Les Paul Lover » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:48 pm

Great news!!!

You did well to insist and contact Orange directly.

Let us know your thoughts when you get it back!!!
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, PPC212
And.... Genz Benz Black Pearl 30
Past Orange: AD30TC Combo, TT, AD5


Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

D|C|M|E
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by D|C|M|E » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:22 pm

So its been a long time. I ended up sending the MKII in exchange for a brand new MKIII 100W head. I felt too disappointed by the lack of quality of the MKII in relation to the B-Stock guarantee of "functioning like a brand new product" of which this was a complete failure. They did the works on the MKII at Orange ATL but I felt ripped off by the dealer.

I got the MKIII in thinking it was going to be as magical as the identical one I played at Guitar Center and after months of waiting for my new cab speakers to "break in," I feel that is highly likely that either my MKIII is a dud or my PPC412 cabinet is a dud. Something isn't right. "Power Projection": my ass.

I went and played a Marshall DSL100H at a Guitar Center recently, and it made me feel ashamed of my MKIII setup. I'm still having the problem of the cabinet feeling like it has NO push. No balls. It feels two dimensional still [PPC412 received in early July '17]. The Marshall at a moderate volume pushed so much air that I felt my pant legs being pushed against my skin. My Orange at comparable or higher volumes does not achieve this when sitting in front of it at the same distance. I'm honestly not sure which component is the culprit but $3000 later, and I feel like a chump. How can Orange amps have such a good reputation and be meant to sound like mine does? I really can't comprehend it.

I'm sure people will think that I'm "just not an Orange guy" and while that may be true in some way or another, I think there's more going wrong here than just a taste mismatch between me and the amp style. I can't honestly believe anyone would want my amp set up if they heard it. I don't know what else to do. I've considered different tubes for the head but in the end I'm afraid of wasting more money and getting no result. I haven't cracked to the back of the cabinet to see if there's something awry in there. I don't know. I feel like crap. I'm completely worn out on figuring out why I'm not getting the same awesome tone other people are getting from Orange. I think I'm just getting all of the Orange duds from the production line. Maybe the tubes need to be biased in a different style. Again, I can't do that myself and I'm afraid of sinking more money into this mess. I've now spent nearly a year with my hair on fire over Orange amps. Never expected this much trouble.
Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII [2017]
Orange PPC412-A [2017]
Orange PPC412 [2017]
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst [2007]
Gibson SG Standard Heritage Cherry [2016]
More than a dozen drive/Fuzz boxes.

Jondog
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Jondog » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:28 pm

Sorry to read that. Something must not be right somewhere in the set-up. I’d check the wiring in the cab. Or take your amp in to a store to try a different cab.
Image

Les Paul Lover
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Location: Derby, England

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Les Paul Lover » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:35 pm

What a shame. :(

As you say, it's possible you're not an Orange guy, but the way you describe it, there's something wrong with your set up. (Even though you may still not be an Orange guy despite that)

As you mention the cab being a possible culprit..... did you get the possibility of playing your head through another cab?

Have you got the opportunity to bring your head to an Orange shop to compare it to another RV100 MKIII?


What did you have before you went Orange? Was that gear in the same house / place where you practice and did it sound good?
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, PPC212
And.... Genz Benz Black Pearl 30
Past Orange: AD30TC Combo, TT, AD5


Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

D|C|M|E
Tiny Terror
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by D|C|M|E » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:04 pm

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:35 pm
What a shame. :(

As you say, it's possible you're not an Orange guy, but the way you describe it, there's something wrong with your set up. (Even though you may still not be an Orange guy despite that)

As you mention the cab being a possible culprit..... did you get the possibility of playing your head through another cab?

Have you got the opportunity to bring your head to an Orange shop to compare it to another RV100 MKIII?


What did you have before you went Orange? Was that gear in the same house / place where you practice and did it sound good?
I haven't had the chance to bring the head to another cab or in vicinity of another RVMKIII to compare and I only own the one cabinet. Its just been a real pain fitting excursions to music stores to test yet another aspect in the face of all my other responsibilities. I just feel burnt out on the whole thing when it was supposed to be a "comfort" purchase... and a really intense splurge of a purchase at that. Feels like Mo' Orange, mo' problems.

Before this I was using a '99 all tube Carvin MTS 3212 and just using the clean (which is exceptional) as a palette for fuzz pedals. The drive channel was meh. It definitely enjoyed the sound and the amp is in the same spot against the same wall give or take a foot or two to the right. The Carvin isn't fancy or necessarily worthy of a devoted following but it did cleans pretty well for my purposes. I just wanted a half stack with enough power to gig around and rehearse with drums and bass and to have an amp with a highly stylized drive circuit and all my research and demo'ing of amps pointed toward a Rockerverb. Now I don't know what to think. I've been tweaking the EQ and drive knobs endlessly for months and I just don't like anything I'm hearing. Some of it is OK but "OK" isn't worth $3K and overall, its failing fundamentally at feeling like the powerhouse that its supposed to be. It will be loud as hell when I turn it up but it feels way too transparent and flat frequency-wise.

Part of me believes that in some cases, not every Orange amp/cabinet is manufactured in either the UK or USA. I've heard some of it is being done in China and I wonder if that might be an indication of lower quality control. Maybe they've begun churning out crap with the heralded name on it. I don't know. Maybe QC has gone down regardless of being manufactured in UK/USA.
Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII [2017]
Orange PPC412-A [2017]
Orange PPC412 [2017]
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst [2007]
Gibson SG Standard Heritage Cherry [2016]
More than a dozen drive/Fuzz boxes.

D|C|M|E
Tiny Terror
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by D|C|M|E » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:07 pm

Jondog wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:28 pm
Sorry to read that. Something must not be right somewhere in the set-up. I’d check the wiring in the cab. Or take your amp in to a store to try a different cab.
Yeah, lately I've been really thinking it could be the cab. Though, I do have a Hovercraft Falcon head and putting that through the cab doesn't seem to have the same frequency deadening but the Falcon fell short of my expectations in overall gain level since I've had it. Still, the Falcon doesn't feel like as much of a failure as the RVMKIII/MKII have felt.
Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII [2017]
Orange PPC412-A [2017]
Orange PPC412 [2017]
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst [2007]
Gibson SG Standard Heritage Cherry [2016]
More than a dozen drive/Fuzz boxes.

Les Paul Lover
Duke of Orange
Posts: 6821
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:08 am
Location: Derby, England

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Les Paul Lover » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 pm

Do you still have the carvin combo? It is a combo right?

What's the speaker wattage/ohm rating? Can you manage to plug carvin speakers into your RV100 speaker output?
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, PPC212
And.... Genz Benz Black Pearl 30
Past Orange: AD30TC Combo, TT, AD5


Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

D|C|M|E
Tiny Terror
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by D|C|M|E » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:29 pm

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:14 pm
Do you still have the carvin combo? It is a combo right?

What's the speaker wattage/ohm rating? Can you manage to plug carvin speakers into your RV100 speaker output?
Still have it. Never wanted to lose it just because it could be a great backup and the cleans are awesome.

It IS a combo. 2x12" 100 watts. The 2 speakers are each rated at 8 ohms. I'm not sure it there would be a good impedance scenario for pulling the speaker cable from the brain of the Carvin and plugging it into the RV. The net impedance of the two speaker should be 4 ohms but the RV head only supports 16 or 8.
Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII [2017]
Orange PPC412-A [2017]
Orange PPC412 [2017]
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst [2007]
Gibson SG Standard Heritage Cherry [2016]
More than a dozen drive/Fuzz boxes.

Les Paul Lover
Duke of Orange
Posts: 6821
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:08 am
Location: Derby, England

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Les Paul Lover » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:51 pm

Are both speakers on only one cable?

If each speaker has its own cable you could plug the only 1 ohms speaker into one of the 8ohms tap. And see what it sounds like.

Still.....
I have 3 recommendations.

- play your head through another known working cab.
- compare your head to a known working RV100 MKIII
- play a known working head through your cab.

That's all you can do now to isolate where the problem is.
I understand that it's galling having spent quite a lot of money on an as yet unsatisfying rig, but you've got to ignore the money aspect for now.

You need to isolate the problem. Bad cab, bad head, both, bad power supply, bad cabling, bad guitar or not liking Oramge amps.

All that matter in the end is that you're happy with what you end up with.

But to do that, you will need to check it out, either with friends at their place, or in music shop or studios.
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, PPC212
And.... Genz Benz Black Pearl 30
Past Orange: AD30TC Combo, TT, AD5


Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

Boy_Narf
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Boy_Narf » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm

Hey Hey!

If you are comparing the clean channel to another amp you will probably be disappointed. I used to think my Rocker 30 clean channel was killer until I jammed with my friend who was playing a blues JR. Wow did my clean sound bad. Of course the distortion channel blew him away :) He kept stopping the song saying how amazing it sounded hah. Very productive practice. Orange cleans nothing all that special IMO. Exactly why I've been searching for a clean amp for 3 years now. Can't beat the drive though. I've never once thought my dirty sound was missing frequencies.

I do believe all PPC212, and PPC412 cabs are still built in the UK, but the speakers are from China. Apparently they sound worse new, but after break-in are nearly identical. Lots of YT vids doing shootouts. If it's two separate amps that sound dull through the same cab I would say it's the cab then.

If both of the speakers in your combo are 8 ohms they would either be 16 ohm total, or 4 ohm total. I don't think it would be 4 ohms as I've never seen that in guitar land before.

Is there any way you could do a recording for us?

Rlw59
Rocker
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Location: DFW, Texas, USA

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Rlw59 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:58 pm

Boy_Narf wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm

If both of the speakers in your combo are 8 ohms they would either be 16 ohm total, or 4 ohm total. I don't think it would be 4 ohms as I've never seen that in guitar land before.
4 ohms is fairly common. Fender Twin Reverb, blackface/silverface Bassman, Dual Showman, lots of other American tube amps. British designers don't seem to like it much.

Also super common in solid state guitar amps, both British and American.

Boy_Narf
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Boy_Narf » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:01 pm

Valid point now that I think about it. Fender/Traynor all irritate the crap out of me with their 8 ohm extension cabs! Corrected! Thanks!

Les Paul Lover
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Les Paul Lover » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:39 pm

Boy_Narf wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Hey Hey!

If you are comparing the clean channel to another amp you will probably be disappointed. I used to think my Rocker 30 clean channel was killer until I jammed with my friend who was playing a blues JR. Wow did my clean sound bad. Of course the distortion channel blew him away :) He kept stopping the song saying how amazing it sounded hah. Very productive practice. Orange cleans nothing all that special IMO. Exactly why I've been searching for a clean amp for 3 years now. Can't beat the drive though. I've never once thought my dirty sound was missing frequencies.


If it's two separate amps that sound dull through the same cab I would say it's the cab then.

Orange cleans ARE lovely. I'll admit, the R30 really needs some reverb on it before to shine, but i find that aplies to almost all amps I've tried/owned (fender included), with one notable exception. The AD series. The AD5, AD15 and AD30 have the best cleans I've heard to date. Absolutely beautiful. And they still get better with some reverb!!!!

The RV50, with a cab like the Laney LT212 (A narrow depth PPC212 with 2 G12H30) sounds REALLY close to a deluxe reverb.
And through the PPC212.... It sounds like a moody, angry deluxe reverb. It's darker, but i prefer that really.


As for the cab, it does sound quite like a possibility. Could it have a phase issue? That would rob a lot of high end, sparkle, and dull things considerably.
Ant

Orange Gear: RV50 MKI, R30, AD15, PPC212
And.... Genz Benz Black Pearl 30
Past Orange: AD30TC Combo, TT, AD5


Guitars: Gibson Les Paul Standard Faded, Vigier Expert Retro 54, Gibson SG 70s Tribute, Aria Pro II RS X80, G&L ASAT Special Tribute

D|C|M|E
Tiny Terror
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by D|C|M|E » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:34 pm

Les Paul Lover wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:39 pm
Boy_Narf wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Hey Hey!

If you are comparing the clean channel to another amp you will probably be disappointed. I used to think my Rocker 30 clean channel was killer until I jammed with my friend who was playing a blues JR. Wow did my clean sound bad. Of course the distortion channel blew him away :) He kept stopping the song saying how amazing it sounded hah. Very productive practice. Orange cleans nothing all that special IMO. Exactly why I've been searching for a clean amp for 3 years now. Can't beat the drive though. I've never once thought my dirty sound was missing frequencies.


If it's two separate amps that sound dull through the same cab I would say it's the cab then.

Orange cleans ARE lovely. I'll admit, the R30 really needs some reverb on it before to shine, but i find that aplies to almost all amps I've tried/owned (fender included), with one notable exception. The AD series. The AD5, AD15 and AD30 have the best cleans I've heard to date. Absolutely beautiful. And they still get better with some reverb!!!!

The RV50, with a cab like the Laney LT212 (A narrow depth PPC212 with 2 G12H30) sounds REALLY close to a deluxe reverb.
And through the PPC212.... It sounds like a moody, angry deluxe reverb. It's darker, but i prefer that really.


As for the cab, it does sound quite like a possibility. Could it have a phase issue? That would rob a lot of high end, sparkle, and dull things considerably.
I've been thinking lately that maybe the speakers could be wired out of phase. I have not cracked it open to check and honestly, I don't know what I'd be looking for as evidence.
Orange Rockerverb 100 MKIII [2017]
Orange PPC412-A [2017]
Orange PPC412 [2017]
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst [2007]
Gibson SG Standard Heritage Cherry [2016]
More than a dozen drive/Fuzz boxes.

Boy_Narf
Orange Master
Posts: 2494
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:27 am
Location: Canada
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Re: RV50H MKII Problems (Long story)

Post by Boy_Narf » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:10 pm


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