dark terror vs dual dark 50

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Tarran-W
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dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Tarran-W » Thu May 04, 2017 1:45 pm

Hi everyone, my first post.

Ive recently been craving a new amp and i really liked the idea of the dark terror until i found its bigger brother. I went to the local music store with 2.5k in my pocket ready to fall in love with the Dual Dark and was shocked when i actually preferred the smaller 15 watt dark terror. Don't get me wrong, there wasn't a big difference, but it felt like the DT just had a slightly more brutal attack that ripped my whole face off, whereas the dual only ripped off about 75% of my face. Anyone else have this experience of preferring the far cheaper lower wattage version? For the record i was using an SG in drop C with a set of Duncan Distortions and a TC electronic Spark booster. Both amps were tested through the same orange 1x12 v30 cab.

P.S Don't get me wrong the dual is a great amp if you need the extra channel and wattage but i rather enjoyed walking out of the store with a new amp and most of my money still in my pocket.
Last edited by Tarran-W on Thu May 04, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Les Paul Lover
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Les Paul Lover » Thu May 04, 2017 2:06 pm

I think the extra (massive low end) the Dual dark puts out isn't necessarily for everybody.

It will have more thump, especially with a PPC412, but the Dark Terror will be more cutting thanks to its lesser low end.

Thing is, the terror amps aren't toys. They are great amp in a small package.
Ant

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Tarran-W
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Tarran-W » Thu May 04, 2017 2:18 pm

hmmmm thats interesting, didn't really notice that either amp had more low end, they felt pretty much the same in terms of eq, the dual dark felt just a bit smoother in its dynamic response. Then again maybe if id played it through a 4x12 i would have noticed, id love to try it.

And yes the 15W terrors are definitely not toys, the bloody thing can shake my entire house! and thats before the bass player even gets here!
Last edited by Tarran-W on Fri May 05, 2017 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bensnake
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Bensnake » Thu May 04, 2017 7:16 pm

You should compare them maxed out. Then you'll notice the difference.
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Tarran-W
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Tarran-W » Thu May 04, 2017 9:47 pm

well its actually the 50w dual dark that has a huge advantage in the low to medium volume environments as it has quite a good inbuilt attenuator, so i was able to try the full range of master volume settings. Whereas the dark terror was stuck pretty low the whole time

Although i know what you mean, the DD is gonna go way louder before its starts over saturating its power amp and compressing. However any situation where i need that volume from the DT i'll have access to a PA anyway.

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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by afjungemann » Fri May 05, 2017 2:41 am

I have a dual dark 100 and while I really love it, I have a major soft spot in my heart for the dark terror. It's small size and simplicity is hard to beat.

As others have said, the low end it has makes it a different beast and using the attenuators won't really demonstrate it that much. The DT doesn't have the power to pump out that gut punching low and so more of its tone hits in the highs and mids giving it more cut. The one thing that bothers me about the DD is I love the DT and so naturally I would probably use channel B for my gain channel on the DD but the low end makes it tough to use in the band I am in so I use channel A and take out almost all of the bass. It gets better that way.

Someday I will grab a dark terror.
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Rod Welles
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Rod Welles » Sat May 13, 2017 5:15 am

Is there any difference in tone and gain between the dark Terror and the duel dark Terror?
Tone is Paramount

Tarran-W
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Tarran-W » Tue May 16, 2017 2:43 am

When i played the two side by side in a guitar store through the same cab i thought they sounded identical in terms of tone and gain, the only difference i noticed was that the dual dark had a smoother dynamic response. Other people have said that the dual dark has more low end but i personally did not hear this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnxPwm69_OQ

this video compares the two quite accurately, unfortunately the two amps are a few minute apart, no back to back comparison

fiveightandten
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by fiveightandten » Tue May 16, 2017 2:50 am

There's a massive difference in the low end produced from a pair of EL34s vs EL84s. It might not sound that different at low volumes, but when you get things cooking, no EL34 and EL84 amp will sound alike.

-Nick
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a.hun
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by a.hun » Tue May 16, 2017 8:21 am

fiveightandten wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 2:50 am
There's a massive difference in the low end produced from a pair of EL34s vs EL84s. It might not sound that different at low volumes, but when you get things cooking, no EL34 and EL84 amp will sound alike.

-Nick
I'd say that that that is almost invariably true Nick, but not necessarily so. The reason (to my mind) it is usually true is that EL84 designs are usually aiming somewhere slightly different from EL34 ones, basically the designer is usually going more for earlier power stage breakup at lower actual power levels when choosing the smaller bottles. Many classic EL34 designs (like old Plexi Marshalls for example!) may actually have very little true power valve distortion happening. Most of the power stage distortion (maybe surprisingly) can be happening at the PI stage rather than the power valves themselves! :o

Of course that is almost all down to design, gain stage management etc. And I'm a firm believer that the circuit design has WAY more influence over an amp's sound / dynamics than the actual power valve type used. (Fenders properly set up for EL34s don't suddenly sound just like Marshalls, any more than Marshalls set for 6L6s do Fenders!)

Also the EL84 is remarkably close in many ways to a scaled down (half power) EL34. Similar characteristics, especially in terms of strong mids and relatively smooth controlled breakup when they do get there. (Both are 'softer' style power valves than say 6L6s or 6550s which can more easily be used for really solid bottom end and more extended highs.)

Have you ever tried one of the old 8 x EL84 Peavey Classic 100 amps though? I wouldn't have guessed the power valves if I didn't know, it had massive thump - great sounding 100 watter.

I think you can compare the similarities between EL34s / EL84s to those between 6L6s / 6V6s, similar sort of (half power) thing going on there too. And you know how often 6L6 designs are basically punchy clean powerful amps while 6V6s are often used in classic smaller early breakup amps. Same sort of thing, but I honestly think more down to amp design than anything else. You could of course design much earlier breakup lower watage amps with EL34s and 6L6s, but it is more convenient to just go with the smaller bottles. You could also double up the number of 6V6s for more solid power, but it is less convenient to do so. (The EL84 does have the big advantage of being one of the cheapest most easily available output valves out there, making the PV C.100 an unusual but reasonably practical proposition.)

I'm intrigued to try the new EL84 Rockers, the 15 especially. I'm hoping that Ade will have designed them so that not just the preamp but the power stages too have the same sort of characteristics as the R.30. That (especially with the 6CA7s I run) has a far more powerful punchy and dynamic output than about any other 30W amp I know, especially cathode biased ones. Peak output is such that I'd not trust the R.30 with a single G12H-30. (AD30 no problem! :wink:) I think Ade is good enough to have done that with the '84s too - if it was what he was aiming for that is. Which I'm kind of hoping!

My thoughts anyway... :wink:


Andy.
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by fiveightandten » Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 pm

a.hun wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 8:21 am
I'd say that that that is almost invariably true Nick, but not necessarily so. The reason (to my mind) it is usually true is that EL84 designs are usually aiming somewhere slightly different from EL34 ones, basically the designer is usually going more for earlier power stage breakup at lower actual power levels when choosing the smaller bottles. Many classic EL34 designs (like old Plexi Marshalls for example!) may actually have very little true power valve distortion happening. Most of the power stage distortion (maybe surprisingly) can be happening at the PI stage rather than the power valves themselves! :o

Of course that is almost all down to design, gain stage management etc. And I'm a firm believer that the circuit design has WAY more influence over an amp's sound / dynamics than the actual power valve type used. (Fenders properly set up for EL34s don't suddenly sound just like Marshalls, any more than Marshalls set for 6L6s do Fenders!)

Also the EL84 is remarkably close in many ways to a scaled down (half power) EL34. Similar characteristics, especially in terms of strong mids and relatively smooth controlled breakup when they do get there. (Both are 'softer' style power valves than say 6L6s or 6550s which can more easily be used for really solid bottom end and more extended highs.)

Have you ever tried one of the old 8 x EL84 Peavey Classic 100 amps though? I wouldn't have guessed the power valves if I didn't know, it had massive thump - great sounding 100 watter.

I think you can compare the similarities between EL34s / EL84s to those between 6L6s / 6V6s, similar sort of (half power) thing going on there too. And you know how often 6L6 designs are basically punchy clean powerful amps while 6V6s are often used in classic smaller early breakup amps. Same sort of thing, but I honestly think more down to amp design than anything else. You could of course design much earlier breakup lower watage amps with EL34s and 6L6s, but it is more convenient to just go with the smaller bottles. You could also double up the number of 6V6s for more solid power, but it is less convenient to do so. (The EL84 does have the big advantage of being one of the cheapest most easily available output valves out there, making the PV C.100 an unusual but reasonably practical proposition.)

I'm intrigued to try the new EL84 Rockers, the 15 especially. I'm hoping that Ade will have designed them so that not just the preamp but the power stages too have the same sort of characteristics as the R.30. That (especially with the 6CA7s I run) has a far more powerful punchy and dynamic output than about any other 30W amp I know, especially cathode biased ones. Peak output is such that I'd not trust the R.30 with a single G12H-30. (AD30 no problem! :wink:) I think Ade is good enough to have done that with the '84s too - if it was what he was aiming for that is. Which I'm kind of hoping!

My thoughts anyway... :wink:


Andy.
My first tube amp was a Classic 100 head! It’s not a bad amp, but the 100W rating is a little ambitious, IMO. To me, it never did have the power, headroom, or thump of an EL34 amp. Though, you’re right, it definitely sounded stout!

You’re right that the design of the amp has the most influence in the sound. As such, there aren’t a lot of amps that you can compare, apples to apples, EL84s vs EL34s, with the same circuit running them. What comes to mind for me are things like the Vox AC-30 vs AC-50, Hiwatts (Custom 20 vs the 50 or 100) or the Suhr Badger 30 vs 35.

I’ve owned two AC-50 heads for quite a while. They have virtually the same preamp as the AC-30. The coupling cap values and tone stack are all the same. There are just some differences in the pre-amp gain stage bias. But the AC-50 absolutely flattens the AC-30 when it comes to low end and oomph (The AC-30 is just as loud, or maybe louder though!). I’ve found the same thing with the Hiwatt Custom 20 vs the big bottle Hiwatts. I think at least some of the “bigness” of the sound of big bottle amps comes from the output transformer. Bigger iron sounds bigger.

Another data point would be people who have used Yellow Jacket tube converters in EL34 amps. I haven’t tried these myself, but everyone seems to report loss of low end. It would be interesting to hear more clear cut examples, but from the ones I've had experience with (Voxen and Hiwatts mentioned above), I've always felt there was a difference that could be attributed to the tubes (or at least the tubes and output transformer).

Anyways, I’m curious to hear your take on the new R.15 and 32. Post up some thoughts when you get to plug into one! It's good to see you maintaining a presence around here lately. You always bring the goods into these types of conversations.


-Nick

P.S. Watch out trusting an AD30 with a single G12H-30 either! I’ve measured my AD30 putting out considerably more than 30W sustained power. :lol:
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Les Paul Lover
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by Les Paul Lover » Tue May 16, 2017 10:01 pm

I'm not sure the R32 will be able to mat h the R30 on the low end department, as the R32 will have 2 × 15w transformers rather than a single 30W transformer.

As mentioned, the bigger the iron the bigger the low end..... I don't believe that applies in the same way twice the iron, bigger low end....
Ant

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a.hun
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Re: dark terror vs dual dark 50

Post by a.hun » Tue May 30, 2017 11:23 am

fiveightandten wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 pm
My first tube amp was a Classic 100 head! It’s not a bad amp, but the 100W rating is a little ambitious, IMO. To me, it never did have the power, headroom, or thump of an EL34 amp. Though, you’re right, it definitely sounded stout!

You’re right that the design of the amp has the most influence in the sound. As such, there aren’t a lot of amps that you can compare, apples to apples, EL84s vs EL34s, with the same circuit running them. What comes to mind for me are things like the Vox AC-30 vs AC-50, Hiwatts (Custom 20 vs the 50 or 100) or the Suhr Badger 30 vs 35.

I’ve owned two AC-50 heads for quite a while. They have virtually the same preamp as the AC-30. The coupling cap values and tone stack are all the same. There are just some differences in the pre-amp gain stage bias. But the AC-50 absolutely flattens the AC-30 when it comes to low end and oomph (The AC-30 is just as loud, or maybe louder though!). I’ve found the same thing with the Hiwatt Custom 20 vs the big bottle Hiwatts. I think at least some of the “bigness” of the sound of big bottle amps comes from the output transformer. Bigger iron sounds bigger.

Another data point would be people who have used Yellow Jacket tube converters in EL34 amps. I haven’t tried these myself, but everyone seems to report loss of low end. It would be interesting to hear more clear cut examples, but from the ones I've had experience with (Voxen and Hiwatts mentioned above), I've always felt there was a difference that could be attributed to the tubes (or at least the tubes and output transformer).

Anyways, I’m curious to hear your take on the new R.15 and 32. Post up some thoughts when you get to plug into one! It's good to see you maintaining a presence around here lately. You always bring the goods into these types of conversations.


-Nick

P.S. Watch out trusting an AD30 with a single G12H-30 either! I’ve measured my AD30 putting out considerably more than 30W sustained power. :lol:
Sorry for the very late reply. So busy, too tired when not...

Yeah, should have known you'd have come across the Peavey C.100 Nick. :lol:

Don't see myself grabbing many more heavy valve amps - light-weight portability and practicality have become much more important to me these days. (Fortunately some of the best lightweight (bass) gear these days also sounds fantastic!) But an AC50 would have been very near the top of the list. Came across one a wee while back and asked my tech friend JP about them, any good / bad periods to watch out for sort of thing. His comment was simple: "All good!!!"

Never played a Hiwatt 20. Would imagine it would punch well above it's weight though.

Also haven't seen any of the new R.15 / 32 amps yet to try. Do like the idea of an R.15C in black, but not worth getting divorced over. But yeah, interested to see how these EL84 amps compare to my trusty R.30.

I think the biggest difference you'd notice between your AD30 and an R.30 (you still not tried one?) wouldn't be the sustained output but the surprising peak output of the R.30, especially for a cathode biased design. That is more why I'd be worried about running just one G12H-30 with the amp than the RMS output. Those speakers are tough and will definitely take a good bit more than 30W, but I'd hate to jump the coil on my single old 55Hz one, otherwise it'd have gone in the amp years ago. The single V.30 really doesn't do the amp justice.

We just can't seem to stay away from here for very long, can we? LOL! :D


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

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