Direct recording sounds thin

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666dodik666
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Direct recording sounds thin

Post by 666dodik666 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:05 pm

Hey guys,

sorry for a bit off topic, but I have been having troubles with recording for a long time. I have used M-audio Fast Track, Line 6 UX1 and Focusrite 2i2. Tried micing my amp (TH30 + PPC412) but it did not sound anywhere close to being good. So I decided to try plugins. However the resulting tone is terrible, which I believe is the problem of the direct clean raw sound. I have tried downloading some raw sounds on the internet, put plugins on and it sounded really good. However if I plug in my guitar straight to the interface, the raw sound is always thin so the resulting sound sounds like s%*t. Has anybody experienced similar problems and figured the way out? Cheers
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Hubaxe » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:59 am

What kind of mic are you using? Recording an amp takes time. Mic position on the speaker, try 2 mics at a different distance, etc.
No magic recipe, just a lot of time and testing :wink:
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by MikeD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:08 am

Hubaxe wrote:What kind of mic are you using? Recording an amp takes time. Mic position on the speaker, try 2 mics at a different distance, etc.
No magic recipe, just a lot of time and testing :wink:
+1

2mics, one on the box and one (preferably not a dynamic) a bit away for depth. The one on the box may need some mixturing to find the sweet spot, I usually prefer off-center and a sm57. Then you'll need to do some work on the eq'ing in your daw. Preferably with headphones and a referens clip. If your only recording guitar you might want to do some layering, working with both recordings, duplicating them, and then using left and right panning.

It's time consuming but once you've found your mic placement the rest is just adding sprinkles to your ice cream :D
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by 666dodik666 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:22 am

Thanks for the responses. I am using Shure SM58 and Focusrite condenser mic. However the point is not that much this kind of recording, but direct recording - guitar, Focusrite 2i2, vst plugins, in which I just cannot get the good basic signal which I can see all over videos and forums. Cheers
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Hubaxe » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:24 pm

The SM58 is for vocals, and moreover it's a stage microphone, not a recording one. That is the issue.

I would suggest to invest in a pair of studio mics. You can find cheap ones that make really good job for home recording.

Get a small diaphragme condenser mic (behringer C4, Fame C1 both are actually Ningbo mic factory products), you can use them for acoustic guitar, amp, lots of application.
Get a large diaphragme one for vocals, and overall applications (Behreinger C1, AKG C3000, etc)


On the cheap mics, I've bought a Fame Single C (under 30 euros) to initially mic my ukulele on stage. This little mic does the job so well that I use it to track some acoustic guitar materials for preprod. And the result/price ratio is unbelievable.
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by 666dodik666 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:22 pm

The thing is, when I recorded with the 58, it sounded good on my headphones on direct monitoring. However the wave recorded and played back sounded bad.
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Hubaxe » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:50 pm

The 58 is not made for that use. It's calibrated for vocals. You'll never reach a good tonal response using it for guitar.

Now if direct monitoring sound good to you, the recordes sound should be close.
A pair of monitoring speakers is also something to consider if you start recording.
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by bclaire » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Shure 57 and 58 are basically the same capsule but with a different directional capability. 57 is designed for straight-on; 58 is designed for vocals with a definite rejection pattern. When used straight-on, a 58 shouldn't sound much different to a 57.

The fact that you say it sounds good when direct monitoring makes me question the input into the computer. If it sounds good direct monitoring and lousy when recorded, I suspect something is not configured properly in the computer. Check and recheck all inputs into the computer; check preferences; and make sure you have the proper input selected: mic level vs line level. I have a feeling that once you get that sorted, you'll be all set.

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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by MikeD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:25 pm

bclaire wrote:Shure 57 and 58 are basically the same capsule but with a different directional capability. 57 is designed for straight-on; 58 is designed for vocals with a definite rejection pattern. When used straight-on, a 58 shouldn't sound much different to a 57.

The fact that you say it sounds good when direct monitoring makes me question the input into the computer. If it sounds good direct monitoring and lousy when recorded, I suspect something is not configured properly in the computer. Check and recheck all inputs into the computer; check preferences; and make sure you have the proper input selected: mic level vs line level. I have a feeling that once you get that sorted, you'll be all set.
Yeah what he said!! And check your sample rates and khz's. 44.1 or 48 not both at the same time.
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by a.hun » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:45 pm

bclaire wrote:Shure 57 and 58 are basically the same capsule but with a different directional capability. 57 is designed for straight-on; 58 is designed for vocals with a definite rejection pattern. When used straight-on, a 58 shouldn't sound much different to a 57.
Yep, Billy is dead right on that. The '57 is a classic for mic'ing up guitar cabs, live or for recording. And unscrew the metal windshield from a '58 and it sounds virtually identical in that situation. I've always just owned the '58 - put the shield back on and you can also drop it 6 feet onto a hard floor something which woud shatter a '57's plastic surround. :lol:

Yeah odd about your input sounding bad. I'd certainly check the things Billy suggested.


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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Hubaxe » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:25 am

Yes 57 and 58 share the exact same cartridge. Removing the grille on a 58 expose the cartridge.
They are reference for live application but even a cheap condenser mic does it better for home recording.

Maybe you are using preset on your recording track that change the sound?
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by a.hun » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:24 pm

Hubaxe wrote:Yes 57 and 58 share the exact same cartridge. Removing the grille on a 58 expose the cartridge.
They are reference for live application but even a cheap condenser mic does it better for home recording.
Sorry, what exactly is 'better'??? :?

Many many many studios with much more expensive mics available will still mic up a guitar cab with a '57 or '58. Why? Because it works! If it isn't working for your sounds that is fine, but they are probably about the most used solution historically - an industry standard, the most used professional mics ever, both on stage and in the studio. And not without reason.

Way I look at it, people find what works or them in a given situation and use it. We aren't talking hi-fi here, we are talking electric guitar. :wink:
Sometimes the best studio solution might be a condenser mic. I've had great results with my trusty Rode NTK, a sweet sounding large diameter condenser which can get fabulous sounds for vocals, acoustic instruments, but which'll also handle enormous SPLs, far higher than I'd ever want to work with. (Most condensers won't BTW, especially not cheap ones!)

Other times though something like those classic dynamics from Shure will get the sounds needed just by careful placement, with minimal EQ'ing or other treatment. And often simplest is best. Knocking the Shures strikes me as fairly pointless. (Especially the '58, which is nigh on indestructible!) Drop any half decent condenser mic though and you'll probably wish you had used a '58 instead. :wink:

All of which has nothing much to do with direct recording...

My own simple solution (for guitar) would be the tried and tested analogue amp simulating hardware, stuff like the Tech21 Sansamps, my Award Session JD10, or for that matter the Bax Bangeetar. If you have problems getting decent sounds out of these you probably don't know how to get the best out of a guitar amp either. Or the better digital amp sim gear, though you do need to learn how to use those right which also basically means knowing how best to use the analogue stuff they are simulating. And part of those 'amp sims' is also a speaker sim...

The most basic thing to realise though in getting good electric guitar sounds is that it isn't a full frequency range instrument. Or rather the guitar maybe, but guitar amps aren't, specifically the speakers used in them. The lowest note fundamentals on a guitar (open low E) are around 80Hz. But you don't need so much of those frequencies, and guitar speakers don't put out too much of them either. At the other end the speaker frequency response nosedives beyond about 4 or 5kHz. Guitar amps don't have / need / want tweeters for high treble frequencies. And if you don't lose those frequencies (either by putting the sounds through a real speaker, or through a speaker simulator - essentially a frequency filter) than the sounds you get will be nasty raspy bad. Plugging your electric guitar into a desk and playing it through full range speakers sounds horrible, there is simply far too much tinny treble which dominates everything else. About the only time that can work is for cutting trebly sounds like the clean ching ching sort of sounds often used for funk or reggae. Put any distortion on it and the added upper harmonics make the rasping sound even worse, much worse.

Electric guitar is all about the midrange. Really! (Electric bass is different - you can often plug a decent bass direct into a mixing desk and get decent enough results for recording without any sort of speaker sim. You can't do that with guitar though.)

So, if it isn't already there you need to emulate the HF roll-off of guitar speakers either by selecting the speaker sim. output / option if your interface has it, or by bunging your signal through something like a H&K Red Box speaker sim or maybe one of the Palmer ones. Maybe that was the problem all along for the OP?


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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Hubaxe » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:25 pm

ok ok, I should said, works better for me. :D
I mean home recording. Condenser mic have a wider range response, and are easier to mix for a non professional sound engineer.
But that's maybe because of my kind of sound. That reminds me that years ago our usual sound guy didn't use a SM57 or MD421 for my amp, but a condenser mic :idea:
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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by Wendigo » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:45 pm

Direct always sounds bad if you dont have some kind of preamp/effect unit that can model the sound of a room or amp. If you are recording dry guitar (ie. guitar > cable > interface) and then trying to apply effects or amp sims after the fact with software plugins, it's going to sound bad. Micing up is laways better.
If you are direct monitoring from your interface with phones, that should be the recorded sound you get, so I assume the record level is too low on your software's track or on the interface, and therefore you have a poor signal to noise ratio (higher sound floor). Make sure the record levels are set to almost clip into the red on the unit anxd in the software, but never actually clip.

Another thing that's happened to me when I have had two mics connected to my interface, but I'm only using one:

I set it all up and record to find that the sound is distant and horrible.....I had the wrong mic selected on the track's input and it was actually recording the sound from my other mic which was on over in the corner of the room! :lol:

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Re: Direct recording sounds thin

Post by JRogero » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:28 am

I've tried a bunch of different things, direct recording, SM57, condenser mic, SM57 + condenser mic (with room mic in various places) but my best results have come from using a single ribbon mic 5-6 inches from the speaker. Ribbon mics have low output but that is not a problem if you have a decent mic pre and you are recording something loud like a guitar amp. They also tend to emphasize the mid range which is great for guitar amps. I also really like them for recording acoustic guitars.

I can't afford a top of the line Ribbon like a Royer but I did pick up an MXL R144 for super cheap and have been pleasantly surprised by how good it sounds.

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