RV Band Mix Issues

[Beljunmalnwa]

Hey Everyone.

I've had my RV for about a month now and have enjoyed it. I especially like it for cleans and leads. The crunchy rhythms are impressive as well.

I do have one issue with it--cutting through the mix. Even with the treble maxed, mids pushed, and bass rolled down it doesn't seem to cut the same way my Dual Terror does. In fact, when my nieces use them together, I have to roll the tone on the DT between 11 and noon so as not to smother or drown out the RV.

I haven't tried an EQ in the effects loop yet but I have to ask, is this a common issue with RV's?

[Les Paul Lover]

Some people have complained of it, but lots have had successes with it too.

Whenever I've used it live with my band, I've only had jaw dropping comment on it, with other guitarists clearly envious..... So i assume it sounds good and cuts through fine.

How old are you valves? You got yours 2nd hand haven't you?

[Bensnake]

The key is to max out the volume (or at least above noon depending on situation) and lower the gain a bit. You're still able to get creamy gain tones out of it though with more definition and attack. And of course, as you've already done, lower the bass and turn up the mids and highs.

[Boy_Narf]

Oh my #1 issue with the RV

What cab are you using? Back in the day I had to have my RV100 nearly cranked to be audible during practice. This is when I came to discover the limitations of the RV series as well as how directional Orange cabs are. If you are playing through a PPC212, or PPC412, try making an opened back plywood panel. It should help stage dispersion greatly.

[Beljunmalnwa]

I have the combo with a V30 which makes it even more surprising, considering the mid-high spike those speakers can have.

The tubes are JJ's and were supposed to have been recently put in.

I'll try taking the gain down a little and pushing the volume some more.

[Borderline Productions]

It may depend on where you are standing. The Orange closed backs are very directional. Lower frequencies carry further. You are also listening for your part, and it may fit better in the mix if it does not stand out so much.

Have someone stand out where the crowd would be when you do a sound check (or get a really long cable and do it yourself) to see what the mix is like.

[MikeD]

+1 What's already been said.

..and watch out for placement, I moved to the far side of the stage when we play small venues because my bassist loves his mids. That and if your standing too close to your box you'll only be playing to your knees, so put it on its side or lift it up (212 of course) and if its a 412 than check your tubes.

[Ronnie Robinson]

+2 on what's been said.


It can be a fairly common issue. Where do you have the gain set?

Imo this is the #1 factor to cutting through a band mix with the RV. Higher than 1 o'clock you may struggle.

I usually keep the gain about 11 o'clock which means you drive the volume more and have no trouble cutting through.

[steamboat]

Maybe I dont know what I'm talking about and that's why I don't understand but isn't pushing more volume just making you louder? If you want to cut through don't you need to figure frequencies out with your band? Its all about mixing well not being louder, well maybe a bit louder for leads. Are most of you not running through a PA live? If so shouldn't your sound guy adjust you guys so everything mixes well? He could probably even tell you what frequencies you need to adjust in your rig so that if you play smaller shows you can cut through without a PA as well. I just don't understand when people say crank the volume. I feel playing live would sound bad that way. You don't want to over power the band. And most likely everyone else in the band will start turning up too and eventually your sound guy has trouble mixing you guys because your all so loud. And also at that point in smaller venues the crowd probably isn't enjoying being blasted at and having there ears ring. Maybe I have it all wrong I just thought master volume amps where meant to sound good at decent volumes not have to be cranked to work right or cut through. I could never see playing with my 30 or 50 watt amps 3/4 or full volume. I'm assuming were not playing arenas haha, for me Its so loud and the rest of the band would not be pleased. And if you have to wear hearing protection don't you yourself miss out a bit on enjoying your own sound by having your ears plugged? Anyways I'd look into frequencies more than just turning up. I do agree though that more gain isn't always better and cutting bass and boosting mids and highs will help. But volume should be determined by the size gig your playing that's just my opinion. My band actually has received good feedback from bar owners that our lower volumes compared to other bands make listening much more enjoyable. I use my gain control a lot for different distortion levels so I personally could never just set it to 11 and do the rest with volume. The only pedals I use are to color the sounds different or a fuzz. Other than that I use the gain anywhere from 10 o'clock to full out. I use the amps distortion over pedals for distortion. So the only time I'm Turning up the volume is when I'm turning down the distortion to try to maintain the same volume level the band is playing at. Anyways I could be dead wrong everyone seems to have there own ways

[Beljunmalnwa]

I don't disagree with a lot of what Stemboat says. I recall going to a show a year ago where the guitarist and sound guy were at each other's throats. The sound guy was telling the guitarist he was too loud and the guitarist was screaming that he couldn't hear himself.

They were both right. The amp was probably cranked so high it was putting the cab's mic in the red. At the same time the guitarist had the Pantera/Death thing going on (I.e. tons of gain, zero mids) and was getting washed out in the mix.

My situation with the Rockerverb isn't that bad, not by a long shot. There just seems to be a cap on the frequencies I can pull from the EQ and it's been a bit of a struggle. Maybe I'm too used to the single tone knob of the Dual Terror, but I have to crank the highs all the way on the RV and boost the mids a lot whereas on the DT, I rarely have the tone above noon so as not to drown out the RV--at the same volume levels no less.

My nieces' have band practice tomorrow night so I will be able to tweak more and listen from the audience's perspective. I'll also throw an EQ in the effects loop to see if that does the trick.

[Les Paul Lover]

When we are recommending to increase the dirty channel volume and reducing the gain, you are getting the same volume level, but differently.

The RV50 dirty channel volume curves happens quite late on, and I find that gain at 11 o'clock, volume at 1 o'clock is pretty much on a par with the clean channel volume set at 10 o'clock .

It's band loud, but not ridiculously loud. And less compressed than with more dirty gain and less dirty volume.....

[Boy_Narf]

Honestly one of the reasons I sold my RV100 (was playing through a PPC412). It took years for me to finally decide, but I ended up trading it straight across for a NOS R30C. I took a bit of a loss, but nothing compared to the cash offers I was getting. There were a few years where the amp just sat in my closet. It made me angry just looking at it haha. An amp that cost so much money, that has so many limitations? Infuriating! Once I got my first R30, I knew the RV100 had to go. There is an inherit thinness to Orange 30 watt amps that really makes them cut (could be why your DT works so well). Where the RV amps excel (IMO of course), is for single guitar three piece bands, or low tuned muddy stoner rock (they might make for a good pedal platform as well). The RV is not a defined/clear amp by any means, and I went nearly crazy in the process trying to make it so. In the end I just realised the limitations of the amp and moved on. I do however have a very sour opinion on the RV series thanks to my experience.

Did you mention whether or not it was an MK1, or an MK2? The open back cab should have no issues cutting compared to it's closed counterparts. Have you tried raising it a bit higher on stage? Perhaps putting it on an amp stand for a bit of an angle, or propping it up on a chair. Heck ask to burrow another bands 4X12 and set it up on there. All of your "cutting" issues could be resolved by this. Did you mention whether you are talking stage volume mix? or audience mix?

Another option could be to chat with the other guitar player/bass player and have them change the EQ on their amps so you fit better into the mix. Since the RV series is so low mid focused. I would get the other guitar player to cut mids/bass and boost treble. Also get the bass player to boost lows, and back off on the mids. That should give you a bit more room to fit in the mix. Now I'm not sure your band will be happy about this, but it could be an interesting experiment.

[Ronnie Robinson]

Maybe I dont know what I'm talking about and that's why I don't understand but isn't pushing more volume just making you louder? If you want to cut through don't you need to figure frequencies out with your band? Its all about mixing well not being louder, well maybe a bit louder for leads. Are most of you not running through a PA live? If so shouldn't your sound guy adjust you guys so everything mixes well? He could probably even tell you what frequencies you need to adjust in your rig so that if you play smaller shows you can cut through without a PA as well. I just don't understand when people say crank the volume. I feel playing live would sound bad that way. You don't want to over power the band. And most likely everyone else in the band will start turning up too and eventually your sound guy has trouble mixing you guys because your all so loud. And also at that point in smaller venues the crowd probably isn't enjoying being blasted at and having there ears ring. Maybe I have it all wrong I just thought master volume amps where meant to sound good at decent volumes not have to be cranked to work right or cut through. I could never see playing with my 30 or 50 watt amps 3/4 or full volume. I'm assuming were not playing arenas haha, for me Its so loud and the rest of the band would not be pleased. And if you have to wear hearing protection don't you yourself miss out a bit on enjoying your own sound by having your ears plugged? Anyways I'd look into frequencies more than just turning up. I do agree though that more gain isn't always better and cutting bass and boosting mids and highs will help. But volume should be determined by the size gig your playing that's just my opinion. My band actually has received good feedback from bar owners that our lower volumes compared to other bands make listening much more enjoyable. I use my gain control a lot for different distortion levels so I personally could never just set it to 11 and do the rest with volume. The only pedals I use are to color the sounds different or a fuzz. Other than that I use the gain anywhere from 10 o'clock to full out. I use the amps distortion over pedals for distortion. So the only time I'm Turning up the volume is when I'm turning down the distortion to try to maintain the same volume level the band is playing at. Anyways I could be dead wrong everyone seems to have there own ways

At the end of the day you do what works for you.

Its not about being louder - the RV is very good at lower volumes anywayby reducing the pre amp gain and increasing the work of the Power Amp section it will produce a less saturated but more dynamic tone that will cut through a band mix better. Its the same reason why clean tones cut through a band mix easily.

When I first bought my RV I had similar issues - not something I'd experienced before with Orange amp but reducing the gain really made s difference in cutting through.


Less Preamp gain will also allow you to alter the gain by using the guitar volume ...although I know the RV is not good at that.

And if the DT frequencies are anything like the TT HW it has more treble / brighness imo.

[imijjj]

I think it's generally a good idea to run an EQ pedal in the loop even if you aren't having problems. I'd try that.

[Beljunmalnwa]

There is an inherit thinness to Orange 30 watt amps that really makes them cut (could be why your DT works so well).

That is true, but for having a 3 band EQ and 20 more watts of headroom, I don't the Rockerverb is that much beefier than the Dual Terror. It is, but I wouldn't call the difference night and day.

And if the DT frequencies are anything like the TT HW it has more treble / brighness imo.

I have to dime the highs on the RV to get the same level as the DT's tone when it's halfway. Ironically, I have to
Max the gain on the DT to match the RV when it's set around 2 o'clock.