I've found a mighty tone....

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johnnysomersett1
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I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:11 pm

In my never ending quest to exhaust my bank account with gear aquisitions, I bought the other day a 1978 Ampeg 8x10 cabinet with the plan of (obviously) using it for bass.

Image

It does indeed sound pretty darned good on a bass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NddpN1Q8s2Y

But I tried it with guitar tonight (very briefly):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkm9wI-tZ9E

The video is short (neighbours) and recorded on a phone but, holy hell, in real life it sounds absolutely amazing! Not too much bass at all, in fact a VERY balanced sound with a healthy thud on palm mutes :D I guess back then in the 70's a lot of speakers were still multi-purpose. It probably helps that the EQ stack on the OR120 is so flexible too but it only took a couple of minor adjustments from my usual settings. The vid, btw, is gain @ 1 o'clock, FAC fully left, HF, bass & treble at noon (flat eq).
Weirdly, on its full 120w (all 4 tubes as the cab is 4ohm) its not even actually that loud!

I can NOT wait for band practice next Tuesday to play it for a decent amount of time 8)

OrangePaul
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by OrangePaul » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:06 pm

Hope the practice goes well :D

What do you normally plug the 120 in to?
Paul.

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a.hun
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by a.hun » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:15 pm

Those cabs don't have much low bass. That was the whole point - a new and radical idea for bass cabs was that they were actually 4 separate 2x10 cabs in one box which concentrated not on the bottom octave fundamental notes for bass (40-80Hz), but on the first octave harmonics from 80Hz+. Results (for bass) were very punchy and full bass sounds because the amp power wasn't being 'wasted' on the (less audible) bottom octave.

That said these cabs weren't that efficient (loud for a given amp power). and OR120s aren't that loud for bass either - I've been playing that particular (OR120) game myself for 3.5 decades now. For guitar though, yeah that should be pretty much nuclear. 8)


Andy.
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johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:53 pm

OrangePaul wrote:Hope the practice goes well :D

What do you normally plug the 120 in to?
I normally use an old late 70s Peavey 4x12. They're really loud (scarily so) but are a tad bright.
a.hun wrote:Those cabs don't have much low bass. That was the whole point - a new and radical idea for bass cabs was that they were actually 4 separate 2x10 cabs in one box which concentrated not on the bottom octave fundamental notes for bass (40-80Hz), but on the first octave harmonics from 80Hz+. Results (for bass) were very punchy and full bass sounds because the amp power wasn't being 'wasted' on the (less audible) bottom octave.

That said these cabs weren't that efficient (loud for a given amp power). and OR120s aren't that loud for bass either - I've been playing that particular (OR120) game myself for 3.5 decades now. For guitar though, yeah that should be pretty much nuclear. 8)


Andy.
Yeh, I noticed the 2x10 compartments when I pulled speakers to date it...thought it was strange. I don't get nearly enough clean power from the OR for bass but the tone is pretty much perfect for some stuff. I am in the process of converting a '76 Peavey Deuce into a head and running a preamp I have into it to see if I get a bit more headroom. Bit of an experiment.

I could tell straight away it wasn't overly efficient as it's probably not even as loud with all tubes as the 4x12 is with just 2! But, that works fine for me as I'm always having to turn down or attenuate live anyway :(

Randy Bass
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by Randy Bass » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:53 pm

That cab is beautiful. Don't you dare think about restoring it!
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Thinline_slim
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by Thinline_slim » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:47 am

Randy Bass wrote:That cab is beautiful. Don't you dare think about restoring it!
No kidding! That cab is pure Rock 'n Roll!
Jake
OrangePaul wrote:Ok gitar lead to you Jake :D
"One of the 400"

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http://www.purevolume.com/JakeMcallasterBand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:16 am

Randy Bass wrote:That cab is beautiful. Don't you dare think about restoring it!
I wouldn't even dream of it! I love my stuff with its 'character' intact and this has it in spades (plus some - supposed - rock n roll heritage I won't go into as I'm 50/50 on it being BS).

My guitar is in a similar state and I love every inch of it. I can't keep shiny things shiny.

johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 pm

So, tonight it got a run at band rehearsal...

WAY too quiet. I'm actually a touch gutted :( just couldn't keep up volume-wise with the rest of the band! Instantly got lost in the mix - despite sounding amazing. Fortunately I had a 2x12 to hand to use (an old Peavey) and the head was louder though that!! I even pulled two tubes and used only one of the 12" speakers and it cut through fine!!
We're not the loudest band (although, we are quite loud) but it couldnt keep up with the drummer at all - let alone the bassist's Glockenklang.

Grrrr :evil:

Les Paul Lover
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by Les Paul Lover » Wed May 06, 2015 5:48 am

What a let down....

So That cab is massively inefficient then....
Cant You try to find similar speaker in terms of frequency response / voicing but more efficient?
Ant

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johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Wed May 06, 2015 6:31 am

Les Paul Lover wrote:What a let down....

So That cab is massively inefficient then....
Cant You try to find similar speaker in terms of frequency response / voicing but more efficient?
Oh, horrifically inefficient! Unbelievably so.

I'm sure there are replacements I could find but, well, you gotta buy 8 of the suckers! That works out pretty darned expensive :(

a.hun
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by a.hun » Wed May 06, 2015 10:23 am

Hmmm, not so 'nuclear' then? Something wrong there. Yeah those cabs are only about 100dB efficient, (I trust Ampeg ratings more than most!), but even so with an OR120 you should be able to cut through.

Did you still have the FAC set fully left? That might be it. The amp will be putting out TONS of low end set there, and since the cab can't put that out it'd just be wasted power, turned into heat instead of sound. Try setting it to the mid position and re-EQ'ing. That should help - hopefully a lot.

Mate of mine who used to gig an OR120 actually used the full right FAC position. Seems like 'tear your head off with treble' territory to me, but he assured me he could outgun any 100W Plexi Marshall which dared to try to compete with him and they are ballsy amps. Point is though that all the FAC positions should be usable with different EQ settings.
http://orangeampguide.atspace.com/orangetonestack.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://orangeampguide.atspace.com/FACknob.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What else? Well, basics really.

You already said you are running into 4 ohms and have the amp set correctly to 4 ohms, right?
I'd check the speakers and cab wiring carefully. If you have a multi-meter you can easily measure the DC resistance. Plug a speaker cable into the cab and check the resistance across the tip / sleeve of the free end jack. If all is normal that should read around 3/4 of the rated cab impedance, so you want to see about 3 ohms DCR.

Anything wired out of phase won't affect the impedance but will affect the sound drastically. Know the 9V battery trick? Open the cab so you can see all the drivers. (Careful with the wiring!) Then touch the battery contacts to the tip + sleeve of the free end cable jack for a moment. You'll hear a click / thump and see all the speakers move. If they all move the same way (either in or out) they are all in phase. Reversing the battery will make them move the other way. If they don't all move there is something wrong, probably a blown (seized) speaker.

I've never actually tried a 'Fridge' for guitar, but I'd have though the results with an OR120 would be pretty impressive. They were loaded with what were basically guitar speakers anyway. Check all that stuff anyway, and I hope it works out.


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Wed May 06, 2015 10:36 am

I did toy with the settings a little but, I'll be honest, I only went one notch up on the FAC (from fully left)!
Turned out one speaker is dead by testing vibrations, I have a 10" guitar speaker in the attic (a Jenson) I'll pop in for now. Maybe I'll try the battery trick tonight/tomorrow. Thanks for the advice :)

a.hun
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by a.hun » Wed May 06, 2015 11:06 am

johnnysomersett1 wrote:I did toy with the settings a little but, I'll be honest, I only went one notch up on the FAC (from fully left)!
Turned out one speaker is dead by testing vibrations, I have a 10" guitar speaker in the attic (a Jenson) I'll pop in for now. Maybe I'll try the battery trick tonight/tomorrow. Thanks for the advice :)
If one is dead than more might be. I'd check them all before risking the amp with unknown impedances and potential damage...

If the rest seem okay make sure the Jensen impedance and power handling specs are right. Everything else being right it'll have to take 1/8th of the amp's cranked power so say 25-30W min rating, preferably more as Jensen ratings aren't as robust as Celestions.


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Wed May 06, 2015 11:22 am

Actuall, as soon as I posted that I remembered the Jenson is 8 ohm and I need 32. Bummer.

Well, I'll do my testing and see what can be figured out.

johnnysomersett1
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Re: I've found a mighty tone....

Post by johnnysomersett1 » Wed May 06, 2015 11:32 am

If a speaker blows, does that effectively just remove it completely from the impedance calculations? If so, I just worked out that it'd only change it from a total of 4ohms to 4.55ohms ....so not really a massive shift. But it does mean the power would be split 50w / 70w for the top and bottom sets.

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