Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

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thebigcheese
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by thebigcheese » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:32 pm

Boy_Narf wrote:Yea lots of people have been mentioning bi-amping, Could always re-wire my cab to run the 210 and 115 separate, or buy a new cab with two inputs. Funny, when I was looking at this cab there was also an 8X8 at the store. It had the option of running all 8 at once, or running 2 amps into 4 speakers each. Might have been a better investment. Oh well!

I did try out two clean blend pedals hoping it would help out, but as posted above the "wet" signal just gets lost in the mix. I can hear my dry tone perfectly fine, but not the effect. Next jam I'm just goona run clean and see how it goes. I am intrigued by the OB1-300 and might pick one up after I sell off a bunch of pedals.
I wouldn't recommend splitting a single cab. Bassist in one of my bands has a Markbass 8x10 that sounds great as a full cab, but every time we have tried splitting it to two 4x10s so we can have a clean and dirty side it completely kills the tone. I think it's because the speakers are no longer working together. You've got all kinds of different air movement going on inside the cab.

The Source Audio pedals are pretty killer, especially their bass ones. Never could get behind the Multiwave on my guitar, but it does some pretty cool stuff with bass.

Boy_Narf
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Boy_Narf » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:56 pm

Hey Dude,

Yea I ordered the OFD just yesterday. Will report back when it gets here.

If this one doesn't work out, I'm honestly done with dirt pedals. I hope so anyway haha. Costing me a fortune, and everyone in my area is so broke that my used stuff isn't going anywhere either.

Oh well.

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by a.hun » Fri May 01, 2015 9:32 am

thebigcheese wrote:I wouldn't recommend splitting a single cab. Bassist in one of my bands has a Markbass 8x10 that sounds great as a full cab, but every time we have tried splitting it to two 4x10s so we can have a clean and dirty side it completely kills the tone. I think it's because the speakers are no longer working together. You've got all kinds of different air movement going on inside the cab.
I'm betting he has a phase issue between the different amps and not a cab problem at all!

As I said to OU818 you have to make sure that the two rigs (amps!) are in phase. Phase cancelling can knock the guts out of your sound. And that is indeed because the speakers are no longer working together. Instead at any one moment some will be pushing the others pulling. Mostly you'll notice lack of bass and a sort of hollow sound. Some decent ABY splitters will have a phase reversal switch for this situation.
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42819" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Personally I use a passive transformer isolated Radial BigShot ABY.
http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/bigshotaby.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p623545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They also do an excellent active (buffered) transformer isolated model, quite expensive but very good:
http://www.tonebone.com/twincity.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Borderline Productions wrote:I'm with Billy, the only pedal should be your tuner. I think you should think in terms of an amp that has a good tube pre-amp, good EQ, and compression or rack gear that perform these tasks.

...If you are getting a great sound with the right pre-amp, compression, and EQ you are 95% there - most bass players do not get anywhere near there. Why mess with that.

Another alternative is active electronics in the bass itself.
Tuner pedal? For bass? Whatever for? :wink:
Just messing, of course you want to be able to tune silently. But my basses tend to stay in tune and I've done plenty of gigs where I just tuned up before hand from an A440 tuning fork (hold it above a p/up and you'll hear the note!), and then tuned the other strings by 5th / 7th position harmonics. I can always do that in seconds, probably quicker than using a tuner! And if one string should go off I can hear which and retune it by checking the harmonics with the other strings. I have actually never used a tuner during a gig that I can remember though I always take one, usually in case I need to tune somebody else's guitar for them. :P

Agreed though, the important things you need for bass are good control of EQ, compression, and - if wanted - overdrive / distortion. If that is all on the amp then fine, you don't need any pedals. But not all good amps have all of that. My OR120 basically does, though I'll sometimes use an external (4 band parametric) EQ with it for more sonic options. My Genz Benz Streamliner does too - it is the closest thing I know to a great all valve bass head which isn't actually all valve. Does have 3 x 12AX7s in the preamp to handle the EQ and gain (/drive). Wonderful amp.

My Hiwatt though won't compress or distort until it gets very loud. Also no distortion on my s.s Ampeg B-100R combo or Tecamp Puma head. And my two much loved (and occasionally even gigged!) MicroMark 1x6" and 1x8" combos only have simple level and VPF (shape) controls. I have no problem using external compression and / or drive with any of them if needed. I see amps as my tone generators. To me that doesn't mean they have to have everything on board though.

That is usually it for me but if it fits the music I'm not allergic to occasionally using what I'd actually call 'effects' too. (As opposed to basic 'tone / dynamics / drive' controls that is!)

My thoughts on active on board bass electronics?
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p632052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still messing about with the new EHX overdrive pedal. Will review it - soonish!


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

Borderline Productions
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Borderline Productions » Fri May 01, 2015 6:03 pm

Billy was kidding about the tuner pedal and so was I.

I got my son a Genz-Benz a number of years ago because of the tube pre-amp and good EQ. I would think that I would not rely on a pedal for compression when there is rack gear that is so much better for only slightly more money.

Thanks for the link to the discussion of active basses.
Bob

Image


http://www.purevolume.com/oxymora" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a.hun
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by a.hun » Fri May 01, 2015 6:37 pm

Borderline Productions wrote:I would think that I would not rely on a pedal for compression when there is rack gear that is so much better for only slightly more money.
You may not have come across this then...
http://www.jimdunlop.com/product/bass-compressor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very good!


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Boy_Narf » Tue May 05, 2015 7:26 pm

Compression hey? One of the best parts of my bass is how dynamic and responsive it is.

Source Audio OFD just came in yesterday. I'm happy! I think anyway haha. Won't be able to test it with the band for a long time (drummer broke his arm), but It is so adjustable I'm betting it will. Blending in some clean, and boosting the bass is perfect for retaining the low end, and if the patch doesn't cut? then bump up the mids a bit. Pretty brilliant pedal IMO. I'm using the tube drive setting for my low gain tone, and the gated fuzz (based on a wolly mammoth) for my higher gain stuff. I already know that gated fuzz would not cut live, which is why I'm glad there is a mid band. I was originally thinking I would need the midi box for an extra 126 presets, but two is more than enough.

It's probably 90% the way there, but comparing them to the real effects it just isn't the same. I was most excited about the Rat model, but it sounds much different than my clean blended Rat 2. It just doesn't have the clank/aggression of the actual rat pedal. I also had a Bass Big Muff for a while, and this Big PI sounds nothing like it. It's more along the lines of a fuzzy OD, as opposed to a full out muff pedal. Perhaps these algorithms were based on the vintage units, I'm not really sure. They sound much more convincing on the SA bass demo video, so it could be my gear as well. That being said the gated fuzz is brilliant! It's spitty and nails that over saturated preamp sound perfectly. WooHoo!

I think these pedals are great value for the money. I guess they are the Strymon of the dirt world? Speaking of Strymon, why haven't they made a multi dirt pedal yet? hmm, probably next on their list haha.

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by a.hun » Tue May 05, 2015 11:04 pm

Boy_Narf wrote:Compression hey? One of the best parts of my bass is how dynamic and responsive it is.
Oh I love dynamics. Don't go thinking though that compression just 'flattens' everything though. Used wrongly, yes of course it can. But you'd get much closer to the truth by changing the second last letter to 'r' as in 'flatters'! Carefully used good quality compression can and does flatter your sounds. Put simply it can (almost always!) make you sound better! :D

Of course most all valve amps give a fair degree of natural compression, so that you can get totally used to it and forget that fact. There the 'natural compression' (partly from the valves, largely too from the output transformer) is seen as a good thing! I use a lot of solid state bass gear too though when external compression can make a real positive difference to the feel, sound and consistency of your sounds, and actually positively affect your playing too.

You may or may not realise this but on virtually every modern professional recording the electric bass sounds will have been carefully compressed. Far from flattening the signal it can actually give it real punch in a mix, and is often able to positively affect the tonality as well as dynamics. For example by varying the compression attack time - how fast the compression kicks in - you'll get really good fine control over the 'attack' of your notes which really does affect their impact, and can be like an extra tonal control as well as dynamic. The release time can work here too - set longer the compression will still be there for the beginning of the next note giving further shaping options. And apart from adding sustain compressors are great for sorting out things like slightly uneven string balance and playing, also evening out the badly balanced lows and highs you get on some instruments.

Of course fully featured comps can seem (and sometimes be) complicated to set up and use. But there are also some very good comps which are very easy and intuitive to use.

One great sounding studio classic only has two knobs, 'gain' and 'peak reduction'. And the so called 'make up gain' simply gives control of the overall output volume for different levels of compression. Couldn't be much simpler, but many users would rather lose some body parts than their LA3A.

But a fully featured comp (like the wee MXR Bass comp I use) gives you control over more parameters such as:
Threshold' (the level it'll start compressing, often an input level control)
Compression Ratio (how strongly it compresses)
attack and release times (how quickly or slowly the compression starts and stops)
(make up) gain to give control of the overall signal.
These all interact to give everything from very subtle to very powerful control over your instrument signals.

I'm a huge fan of that MXR comp, it works like a fully featured studio comp, and yes that row of LEDS really is genius. It really works so well that unless I'm pushing a valve amp's output section harder than I usually get a chance to these days it is almost always getting used. Basically an 'always on' because I can almost always audibly improve my sounds with it, and not just for bass. For guitar too it can add lovely feel and sustain to even clean sounds and also give different textures to drive sounds, but set right without killing the dynamics I love. I use very different settings for my electric nylon string from steel string electric, and my '51 reissue 'P' bass p/up is so punchy that it can overdrive almost any input when hit hard, so for solid state it gets compressed - period. My U-bass has very different needs but again I can always get great control over the sounds and sustain with careful comp tweaking.

I've also just grabbed an Xotic SP comp which is a brilliant little thing - both effective and great sounding, also really simple and intuitive to use. Just trust your ears when setting it and you won't go wrong. I was wanting another comp so that I didn't always have to change settings if using very different instruments and it was either that one or another identical MXR unit. I always prefer to have different options available rather then identical duplicates so and I'm glad this one came up here recently:
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So yeah... compression. Used right it gives you great control of dynamics without killing them!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_ra ... n#Limiting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

OU818
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by OU818 » Thu May 07, 2015 12:01 am

So I have set up my bi-amp bass rig to rip off Royal Blood as hard as I can.

It goes:

Fender Jazz Bass 32" -> Boss TU-2 -> EHX Switchblade (may became a Radial ABY) -> Chan A & Chan B

Chan A

EHX POG2 (Octave Up on full, no dry, LPF on half) -> EHX Pitchfork (P5th) -> Ibanez ST-9 -> Boss LS2 ((A+B Mix) A=EHX Russian Muff B=Rockett Animal) -> Marshall 2466 on Low Dynamic mode through 425A 4x12

Chan B

Boss CS-3 -> Hiwatt DR103 through 3x12 bass cab

The Pitchfork is still on it's way however even without it this setup sounds huge. Just need to get my levels right now.
Orange Gear:
AD200B MkIII
OBC810

Non-Orange:
Bergantino NXT212
Bergantino Forte D
Woogie Lessie
Laney DBV-410

Basses:
Ernie Ball Stingray 4H
Rickenbacker 4003
Gibson Midtown Signature
Gibson Thunderbird
Gibson Nikki Sixx Thunderbird
Gibson Les Paul Bass

Boy_Narf
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Boy_Narf » Fri May 15, 2015 5:42 pm

Hey Guys,

Just a quick update on my Source Audio Bass OFD. It let me down big time during it's first practice. It was on the fritz!!! Erasing patches, muting my signal, randomly shutting down... just straight up screwed! I had to power down my pedalboard multiple times, and re-build my patches twice. I can't believe how un-reliable this thing is. I don't even want to try this thing live. I've put my "analogue" BB Preamp back on my board as it has never let me down, and sounds great aside from a few feedback problems (easily controllable if I'm paying attention hah). I'm giving up. Can't keep wasting cash like this. So I'm sticking with what you see below:

Image

I've come to a startling conclusion during my quest for dirt. What sounds great in the bedroom/studio doesn't translate to live sound. Like lots of people have been saying most bass tones that sit well in the mix sound like crap on their own, and I'm starting to realize that. I was really excited about the OFD because it was a bass pedal that finally had a 3 band EQ. I don't understand why so many bass overdrive pedals don't have a mid control. Mids are what make a bass tone IMO. Good lord do we need a bass pedal with a full 10 band EQ, or a multi band parametric EQ in the mid section. Perhaps I should put together something like this and start selling it :)

My biggest disgust came when I picked up the Darkglass B3K. What a piece of !@#$. Some of the worst tone I've ever heard, yet it's one of the most popular pedals over at TB.

For guitar I'm quite against dirt/od/fuzz pedals, as I feel they take away from the natural tone of the amp. A long time ago I sold all my dirt pedals for guitar and rely strictly on my dirty channel and volume knob. Not sure why i figured bass would be any different. I should have picked up a two channel, or a tube head that I could control with the volume knob. Oh well. Live and learn.

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by brownmatthall » Fri May 15, 2015 7:14 pm

the bass tone I usually find myself chasing is the kind of gritty, edge of breaking up kind of tone. Not full on distortion but not quite clean either. I run a p bass into an aguilar tonehammer 350 which is where most of my dirt is coming from, in front I have an aguilar tlc compressor for light peak limiting and general volume smoothing between strings and infront of that I use a tubescreamer as a clean boost and to tighten/brighten things up when I need cut. I find every tone I could ever need or want is easily achieved with this set of gear :)
http://daisychainrock.bandcamp.com/releases" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boy_Narf
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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Boy_Narf » Fri May 15, 2015 7:28 pm

I can dial in that "hint of breakup" tone easily with my amp. There are just times when the guitar player goes for a solo, or the song gets angry where I want to bring in some dirt. I had quite the setup when I joined this band. All my gear sounded so lovely practicing at home, or recorded. It wasn't until joining a very loud and band where every instrument seems to dominate the mix I discovered my pedals are no good live. We did a jam the other day without a drummer at fairly quiet levels. We couldn't hear the keyboard at all. I have mentioned to the guitar player that some of his patches either don't cut or are eating the mix, and was greeted with the stare of death haha. Now I just try to work around his tone and find my own place in the mix. The BB Preamp is the only pedal I have tried that actually lets me poke through a bit. Probably due to the high mid bump the pedal offers.

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by brownmatthall » Fri May 15, 2015 7:56 pm

Well at that point there's only so much you can do...I mean if it's just the three of you and the two of em can't tell they're eating up all the sonic real estate :roll: it might be worth trying an eq pedal and seeing if you could poke through that way, I know the mxr 10 band is fairly inexpensive and works really well
http://daisychainrock.bandcamp.com/releases" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by a.hun » Mon May 18, 2015 11:45 am

a.hun wrote:I just received the EHX one I mentioned on p.2. Most excellent overdrive, yes indeedy, and the blend control adds a seriously useful extra level of control! I don't normally do reviews on all my new gear but this'll have to be an exception - probably tomorrow.
Okay, took a bit longer than planned, but it came up here
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53885" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
so I kind of had to add my own thoughts. Better late than never... :lol:


Andy.
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In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by Bensen » Mon May 18, 2015 7:25 pm

a.hun wrote:...My Hiwatt though won't compress or distort until it gets very loud...
Hey Andy, you own the DR103 right. I bought one too recently and enjoy it very much for both bass and guitar. I played a first gig with it and it held up perfectly, so much punch and clarity. It's like switching to grand piano for the first time after years of keyboard playing.
However, my DR103 can distort very nicely at moderate volume with the right setting of the master volume and gain potis. Don't they all have master vol controlls or does mine have a unusual hot preamp? Sorry to hijack this thread but I would like to hear your opinion on this.

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Re: Bass Tone: What is your take on it?

Post by a.hun » Mon May 18, 2015 10:52 pm

Bensen wrote:
a.hun wrote:...My Hiwatt though won't compress or distort until it gets very loud...
Hey Andy, you own the DR103 right. I bought one too recently and enjoy it very much for both bass and guitar. I played a first gig with it and it held up perfectly, so much punch and clarity. It's like switching to grand piano for the first time after years of keyboard playing.
However, my DR103 can distort very nicely at moderate volume with the right setting of the master volume and gain potis. Don't they all have master vol controlls or does mine have a unusual hot preamp? Sorry to hijack this thread but I would like to hear your opinion on this.
No problem. Problem is to get me to shut up about my Hiwatt! :lol:
Yeah it is a '74 DR103. Some later ones, the two holers (= 2 instead of 4 inputs) and especially the Biacrown models did have some more gain. But with mine you can literally crank the preamp volumes fully and it'll stay very clean until you also get the master up near full. There is a little more gain on the bright channel so that is the one which'll do it first, but still not on it's own, you need the MV set high.
http://hiwatt.org/FAQ.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah punch and clarity is what Hiwatts do. They just sound plain 'BIG', something mine manages even at low volumes where it sounds bigger and plain better than any other valve amp I know. But for all that they also sound sweet and refined, not sharp edged or abrasive, just very musical.
For a plain Bass --> simple valve amp --> cab setup I know of nothing better sounding than a Hiwatt, including all the usual suspects eg Ampeg, Fender etc.

Lucky you then. Congrats on the amp! 8)


Andy.


Andy.
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Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

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