Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

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Randy Bass
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Randy Bass » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:22 pm

kpunk56 wrote:I did not realize this before, but is this true, the closed back 2x12 has side by side speakers, and the open back has them diagonal. Correct ??? if this is the case, I totally think that when I get an orange cab, I will go for the open back, and then build a back to close it off ... if i wanted the other option.
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by a.hun » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:57 pm

Mystic38 wrote:Guitar cabinets are not immune from science ;)

What a frequency chart will definitely show, whether you wish to accept this or not, is the tonal response of a clean signal. The "harmonically complex" output of the guitar, or amp, is simply (as viewed by the speaker) an adjusted set of signals at different frequencies and amplitudes provided that the speaker is operating in its linear mode.

Note that these tests are using a pink noise source, not a swept sinewave, so it is already a "harmonically complex" waveform.

While clearly cone breakup is not shown, nor is transient response, note that pretty much every single subjective comment made about open back vs closed back cabs is supported by this data so therefore the essential character of the cabinet imo is very definitely shown...its unclear why folks here would ignore solid data that fully supports their subjective opinion...

To me, given we are not looking at two different speakers here, and therefore the driven/breakup (and to a lesser extent transient response) character will be substantially similar, the comparison of the clean response is completely valid imo

I started these tests as the R30C sounded brash and very forward here in the studio at rational room volumes. Compared to the CB, I can hear the difference, I can then see a measured difference on the plots, and then I can use this information to EQ the R30C to sound substantially similar to the CB cab...

So we can agree to disagree but to me, subjective observation supported by measured data is solid information, a controlled experiment using that data make it pretty conclusive to me. .. Subjective observation without measured data OTOH is just somebodys opinion.
Hey Ian, I've just re-read everything you wrote somewhat more carefully - here and in the other thread where you posted those charts. Since you were using broad spectrum pink noise and they were direct comparisons under the same room circumstances etc. I think the points you made were indeed all valid. I agree you were seeing the tonal differences between the open / closed cabs with the same driver type. And the fact that compensating with your (parametric) EQ could bring things tonally a lot closer also shows that your were seeing them accurately. 8)

Andy apologises! :)

FWIW on speaker options for the R.30C my intention (if I ever get round to it) is to go for the Mesa Celestion MC90 for mine. I've never seen a graph on it but know from personal experience with my OR120 (subjective, I know :lol:) that it is in the same ballpark tonally as the G12H-30 and old G12-80. It is also really efficient and generally 'big' sounding and works well in 1x12s where the V.30 (IMO) doesn't excel.
Several posts on it from my old tech John Phillips here:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=295825" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes that is subjective, but I also know which direction I want to go for the combo, a bit more body and lows / highs (especially at lower to moderate volumes) without that slightly nasal V.30 upper mids peak. My experience suggests that this should get me that. I'd have fitted my old 50Hz resonance H-30 but John dissuaded me - he reckons the amp could probably blow a single H30 fairly easily, something most 30 watters wouldn't. Two standard 'Anniversary' H-30s do work a treat with the R.30, but I really like the 1x12 format - exactly why I went for the combo version.

BTW have you tried a clean boost with your Normal channel? You said on the other thread it wasn't getting even close to as loud clean as the TH30 clean channel. A clean boost on that channel should get the R.30 cleans much closer. (It is so low gain that it can take a hotter input signal and still amplify it cleanly!) Worth trying anyway, a couple of us do use the MXR Micro Amp for just this.
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p591891" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Andy.
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Moon » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:29 pm

The build quality of the OB is top class as is everything else made by Orange...don't let the made in china tag put you off.

I haven't studied the dimensions but the HT100 sat on top of the OB perfectly and looked the business.

The band I play in plays covers and we cover a hell of a lot of ground from 1950's to present day but we rock everything up. We don't do any metal so when we tried it we were throwing out your bog standard rock & blues riffs with a bit of chugging thrown in for good measure.

As a point of interest as far as sound requirements go...both the other guitar player and myself both used to have Blackstar HT Stage 60's. We loved the sound of 'em for what we did but they were just too damn heavy so we changed our gear. He's now running a Marshall TSL60 and I run an Orange TH30 both into Orange OB 2 x 12's...the one thing we're unanimous on is that the cabs are brilliant. As another point of interest the other guitar player is thinking of getting a HT100 as well as an alternative to the Marshall.
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Thinline_slim » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:26 pm

Randy Bass wrote:
kpunk56 wrote:I did not realize this before, but is this true, the closed back 2x12 has side by side speakers, and the open back has them diagonal. Correct ??? if this is the case, I totally think that when I get an orange cab, I will go for the open back, and then build a back to close it off ... if i wanted the other option.
Yes.
That's exactly what I did. I doubt closing the back of the OB is going to sound as good as the original PPC212 but I couldn't go with the weight of the PPC212. As a closed back it sounds good and it sounds good open (I change depending on the speakers). I can't say how it sounds open/closed with the V30s though. I don't care for them personally so my experience has only been with Eminence.

I do have a pair of G12Ms from the late 1990s though (English made). I'm not so sure I tried them with the OR50 before. May have a project this week. :lol:
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Mystic38 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:56 pm

Hey thanks Andy :)

I actually think our tone goals are pretty similar here.. imo I think the V30 excels in the closed back configuration specifically because of its pronounced mids but to me not so much in OB cabs...I suspect that if i gigged with the R30c this would change my mind though...

Interesting that after doing these tests i was able to better zoom into the type of speaker that may suit what i was wanting to hear.. as it helped put other peoples subjective opinion into a better perspective. As a result the MC90 went onto my short list, now along with the G12H75 creamback .. since i am looking for a stronger bottom end and a bit smoother mids. ..I may also just live with the EQ pedal too..lol

regarding clean boost on the R30c clean channel and yup, I did actually use the boost function on the paraEQ to push the R30c clean channel louder and yup that seems the way to go..plenty more volume there..though i didnt get to the point of pulling out the SPL meter it is certainly louderer!..

cheers!
a.hun wrote:
Mystic38 wrote:Guitar cabinets are not immune from science ;)

What a frequency chart will definitely show, whether you wish to accept this or not, is the tonal response of a clean signal. The "harmonically complex" output of the guitar, or amp, is simply (as viewed by the speaker) an adjusted set of signals at different frequencies and amplitudes provided that the speaker is operating in its linear mode.

Note that these tests are using a pink noise source, not a swept sinewave, so it is already a "harmonically complex" waveform.

While clearly cone breakup is not shown, nor is transient response, note that pretty much every single subjective comment made about open back vs closed back cabs is supported by this data so therefore the essential character of the cabinet imo is very definitely shown...its unclear why folks here would ignore solid data that fully supports their subjective opinion...

To me, given we are not looking at two different speakers here, and therefore the driven/breakup (and to a lesser extent transient response) character will be substantially similar, the comparison of the clean response is completely valid imo

I started these tests as the R30C sounded brash and very forward here in the studio at rational room volumes. Compared to the CB, I can hear the difference, I can then see a measured difference on the plots, and then I can use this information to EQ the R30C to sound substantially similar to the CB cab...

So we can agree to disagree but to me, subjective observation supported by measured data is solid information, a controlled experiment using that data make it pretty conclusive to me. .. Subjective observation without measured data OTOH is just somebodys opinion.
Hey Ian, I've just re-read everything you wrote somewhat more carefully - here and in the other thread where you posted those charts. Since you were using broad spectrum pink noise and they were direct comparisons under the same room circumstances etc. I think the points you made were indeed all valid. I agree you were seeing the tonal differences between the open / closed cabs with the same driver type. And the fact that compensating with your (parametric) EQ could bring things tonally a lot closer also shows that your were seeing them accurately. 8)

Andy apologises! :)

FWIW on speaker options for the R.30C my intention (if I ever get round to it) is to go for the Mesa Celestion MC90 for mine. I've never seen a graph on it but know from personal experience with my OR120 (subjective, I know :lol:) that it is in the same ballpark tonally as the G12H-30 and old G12-80. It is also really efficient and generally 'big' sounding and works well in 1x12s where the V.30 (IMO) doesn't excel.
Several posts on it from my old tech John Phillips here:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=295825" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes that is subjective, but I also know which direction I want to go for the combo, a bit more body and lows / highs (especially at lower to moderate volumes) without that slightly nasal V.30 upper mids peak. My experience suggests that this should get me that. I'd have fitted my old 50Hz resonance H-30 but John dissuaded me - he reckons the amp could probably blow a single H30 fairly easily, something most 30 watters wouldn't. Two standard 'Anniversary' H-30s do work a treat with the R.30, but I really like the 1x12 format - exactly why I went for the combo version.

BTW have you tried a clean boost with your Normal channel? You said on the other thread it wasn't getting even close to as loud clean as the TH30 clean channel. A clean boost on that channel should get the R.30 cleans much closer. (It is so low gain that it can take a hotter input signal and still amplify it cleanly!) Worth trying anyway, a couple of us do use the MXR Micro Amp for just this.
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... er#p591891" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Andy.
-Ian-

Orange Rocker 30c, PPC212 & PPC112, Fender DRRI, Marshall 2266
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Tizzer » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:16 am

I also used a Peavey Valveking 412 for quite a while. I ended up getting the closed back orange 212, and I'm super happy with it. I don't have much experience with the open back cabinets, but I'd imagine the palm mutes will still be accurate enough on either cab. I would also say that I don't think you'll have too much trouble hearing yourself even with the closed back, especially if you're going to have it elevated on a flight case. I'm in a band with another guitarist and I can still hear myself with my closed back 212 on the floor. Everyone's right about the weight though, my cabinet is HEAVY for a 212. It's also worth noting that the closed back costs a bit more (if I'm remembering right). Anyway, I don't think you'll be unhappy with whatever you end up getting, Orange makes some quality cabs.

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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Humbucky » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:20 am

Moon wrote:The build quality of the OB is top class as is everything else made by Orange...don't let the made in china tag put you off.

I haven't studied the dimensions but the HT100 sat on top of the OB perfectly and looked the business.

The band I play in plays covers and we cover a hell of a lot of ground from 1950's to present day but we rock everything up. We don't do any metal so when we tried it we were throwing out your bog standard rock & blues riffs with a bit of chugging thrown in for good measure.

As a point of interest as far as sound requirements go...both the other guitar player and myself both used to have Blackstar HT Stage 60's. We loved the sound of 'em for what we did but they were just too damn heavy so we changed our gear. He's now running a Marshall TSL60 and I run an Orange TH30 both into Orange OB 2 x 12's...the one thing we're unanimous on is that the cabs are brilliant. As another point of interest the other guitar player is thinking of getting a HT100 as well as an alternative to the Marshall.
Allright, great to hear this! The HT100 is an incredible deal in price/value, at least to me it is. I just need a better cabinet to let it shine and roar like it's meant to do.

It would be silly looking if the head was bigger than the cab :D
Tizzer wrote:I also used a Peavey Valveking 412 for quite a while. I ended up getting the closed back orange 212, and I'm super happy with it. I don't have much experience with the open back cabinets, but I'd imagine the palm mutes will still be accurate enough on either cab. I would also say that I don't think you'll have too much trouble hearing yourself even with the closed back, especially if you're going to have it elevated on a flight case. I'm in a band with another guitarist and I can still hear myself with my closed back 212 on the floor. Everyone's right about the weight though, my cabinet is HEAVY for a 212. It's also worth noting that the closed back costs a bit more (if I'm remembering right). Anyway, I don't think you'll be unhappy with whatever you end up getting, Orange makes some quality cabs.
About the weight: I used to have a Peavey Valveking 212 Combo, it weighed 31kg, a very similar weight in comparison with the Closed back. It was heavy, but actually not something I couldn't deal with. I guess it was a major tone-upgrade from the Peavey?
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Re: Orange PPC212 - Open back or closed back?

Post by Tizzer » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:28 am

Humbucky wrote:About the weight: I used to have a Peavey Valveking 212 Combo, it weighed 31kg, a very similar weight in comparison with the Closed back. It was heavy, but actually not something I couldn't deal with. I guess it was a major tone-upgrade from the Peavey?
It's not outrageously heavy. I can still lift it fine by myself, it's just kind of an awkward shape to carry alone with it being a big long box with the handles far away from each other. I use a small 2-wheeler to move mine usually. Definitely a big improvement in tone though. The Celestion V30 speakers are a huge upgrade alone, and the cabinet itself has really solid construction with nice thick wood. In recordings, my peavey 412 actually sounds smaller/thinner by comparison.

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