Trying to find that perfect sound, part 2

[rangerofheaven]

Alas, so I've been trying to find my sound for awhile now. You guys have always been a lot of help, so once again, I reach out to you.

I play indie/post-punk music with a telecaster into either an OR50 or a Rocker 30. I've been trying to decide which one to keep because I can't afford to keep both. I've also been considering selling both of them for an AD30 or something else entirely. I've just been having some trouble getting the right sound out of either, I don't have a proper cab yet and I think I need to change out the pickups in my guitar.

The kind of tones I'm trying to capture range from bright and biting to dark and punchy. A perfect combination of the two could really suit my needs.

Specifically these two bands cover the range of tones I'm after. Both telecaster players, but starkly different. I'd like to be able to achieve somewhat of both through the same amp. Obviously not exactly both, but somewhere in the middle.

Young Widows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8df80hsQ6OI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjKkZaX7WuQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Number Girl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd43ES4dj5M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0zIagfzowk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My main problem is getting good sound cutting through the mix. It's easy to have good tone at low volume, but playing with a loud drummer and bassist tends to make my tone sound fizzy and transparent at times. More efficient speakers? Better pickups? There's so many variables up in the air at this point that I start to feel overwhelmed.
Help me forum.orangeamps.com. You're my only hope

[snickerpuss]

When you're aiming for specific tones, I find it's a lot easier to start with a great sounding crisp clean with miles of headroom and run some dirt pedals through it. There are so many boutique overdrive, compressor, and tone shaping pedals out there, it's a lot easier to shift between 100-200 dollar pedals than 1000-2000 dollar amps, and the warranties and return policies are usually just as good and sometimes better. I checked out those bands and songs and you should try a Fender Twin or something similar to really capture that punchy twang. If you really want to go Orange, perhaps you should try the AD200 bass head which struck me as a great pedal platform.

That "grail tone" is likened appropriately in that you'll search forever and fail to find it or just trick yourself into thinking you've found it. I've never found mine, but I've found inspiration several times on my journey. Play lots of gear and stick with what gets you a sound that makes you pick up the guitar when you pass it in the room.

[Les Paul Lover]

2 variables that we need to know:

- What guitar/pick ups are you using?

- What cab / speakers do you have?

You already said that you aren't happy with your cab, so I strongly suggest looking into that first.
Speakers, and cabs, have a absolutely Massive impact on the way you sound. Bigger change than most pickup swap.

It's quite possible that with a decent cab, your tone search could be over, assuming you have a good guitar.

[Jondog]

hmmm, I think you need a Dual Dark.

[jax510]

I second knowing what cab/speakers you are using. I remember when I bought my ad30 off a guy he had it hooked up to some crappy ibanez 412. I brought my orange ob212 over and it sounded massively better. The look on his face when I went from the ibanez to my orange was priceless. I was also quite worried he wasn't going to sell it to me anymore Also I haven't played the amps you have but I think it would be easy to get pretty close to those sounds with an ad30 and just set each channel a little differently.

[0000]

I've owned all three Orange amps you mentioned here. Honestly, Orange amps are probably the best for that very mid-focused crunch... not this bright, sparkling bite that it sounds you're wanting. I too was craving a similar tone this past year, so I actually stepped away from Orange amps for awhile and tried out some new things. Different pedals, guitars, pickups were not getting me to where I wanted to be.

I'll all honestly... you should see if there is a Matchless amp dealer in your area so you can try one out. No other amp (not even the clone copies of Matchless amps) have this sparkling, swirling, 3-D richness to the tone that can still retain that clarity while being pushed into a thick, full, punchy tone. If possible... I'd suggest try trying one out somewhere, with your guitar of course, and see how it compares to say Orange amps. It's like night and day difference.

[sidvicious]

screams ac30 to me, or marshall jtm 45.

[Ronnie Robinson]

Get a good cab first that matches your amps. ....that can make a lot of difference

[Phlowen]

Honestly, this is why the TH30 intrigued me so much. It's Class A, rather than A/B, and I have always LOVED the cleans I could achieve on nice Class A amps like Matchless or Bogner, etc. But I wanted the luscious Orange distortion achieved through their A/B amps like the Rockerverb. When I saw the TH30 was class A, but claimed to retain the huge, fat, beautiful distortion Orange is known for, I decided to give it a shot.

I'm a broken record about this: I was about 75% satisfied with it (clean channel was amazing and everything I wanted) but the dirty channel left much to be desired: lots of muddy low end and really fizzy highs, the shape knob was a nightmare. After switching out the cheap, Chinese stock transformers for Mercury Magnetics, I LOVE it. The cleans got better, sparkly, shiny, perfect, and the dirty tightened up: way better definition everywhere: highs, mids, and lows, and the shape knob actually produces a range of USEABLE tones. Basically, my TH30 to me sounds like if a Matchless and an Orange had a baby. That might sound like blasphemy to some...but I call it pure, unadulterated goodness.

While it's a total pain in the ass to buy and amp and then have to change out the stock transformers to get it perfect, I highly recommend it. It's incredibly versatile, and I think you'd be able to achieve the range of tones you're looking for.

The Dual Dark is still Class A/B. The Dual Terror is Class A (but shares the same stock transformers as the TH30). I haven't played through either, so I can't really speak to them, but they might also be great options to get what you're looking for.

DISCLAIMER/NOTE: My differentiation between the clean sounds of Class A vs. Class A/B amps might really be the difference in the tubes: it could be that EL84's are giving me the clean sound I like, and it just happens I've only used EL84's through class A amps. Today it's possible (especially with the OV4) to use EL84's in anything. Just want to fully disclose/admit that as some people get huffy when people start to bring up Class A vs. Class A/B.

[Les Paul Lover]

Phlowen, your Th30 is class A/B.

It doesn't really matter, just so long as you love it.

I love my class A/B RV50 and AD15, and loved my past class A AD5. Claiming to be Class A is more of a marketing gimmick. What matters is how they sound.

[Randy Bass]

"Cathode-biased" is the important phrase that does distinguish the TH30 from the 50-watt+ Oranges, though Orange (along with Vox and nearly every other amp manufacturer) prefers to call these amps Class A. Either way, you get a different feel and more three-dimensional tone from cathode-biased amps in my experience. That's really the big difference.

[Phlowen]

Phlowen, your Th30 is class A/B.

It doesn't really matter, just so long as you love it.

I love my class A/B RV50 and AD15, and loved my past class A AD5. Claiming to be Class A is more of a marketing gimmick. What matters is how they sound.

Are you serious? They've been lying to me calling it a class A?

I also loved my A/B RV50.

And I agree, doesn't really matter as long as one likes the way it sounds, but I wonder why Orange would bother differentiating if it was doing so incorrectly...

[rangerofheaven]

2 variables that we need to know:

- What guitar/pick ups are you using?

- What cab / speakers do you have?

I'm playing a Fender American Special Telecaster with the stock Texas Specials in there. It can sound really great, especially in the middle position. The bridge pickup feels extremely thin though, I never use it by itself.

The cab situation is weird. The Rocker 30 is a combo so it has the stock Vintage 30 in it which sounds great, but the amp could probably use a closed 2x12 to add more punch and clarity. For the OR50, I was using a Marshall 1960A Cab with G12H75s, but I absolutely hated it, so I sold it to try and buy something else. For now I just use the cabs at my practice space...random home built cabs with random speakers. Not terrible, just not great at all.

you should try a Fender Twin or something similar to really capture that punchy twang.

I've had a couple people say that to me, and I always felt like I wasn't that into Fender. I much more enjoy the British crunch of Vox, Marshall, Orange, etc. Based on your recommendation and others though, I went and played one with my guitar and pedals, (65 Reissue) and honestly it did sound pretty great. It was extremely punchy, punchier than just about anything I've played and it took my pedals extremely well. I like to loop sometimes, and most of the time amps muddy up when I try to do too many loops. They were extremely clear and distinct on the twin.

I could really see myself getting along with it, but there's a certain buzzy-ness to the tone. I guess that kind of goes with the whole rock and roll garage rock tone of the American sound, but it almost seems too bright to me. If there were a more darkly voiced amp with that punch, maybe an Orange that was as punchy as a twin, I could see myself in heaven. Maybe the older high wattage Oranges were like that?

I've owned all three Orange amps you mentioned here. Honestly, Orange amps are probably the best for that very mid-focused crunch... not this bright, sparkling bite that it sounds you're wanting.
I'll all honestly... you should see if there is a Matchless amp dealer in your area so you can try one out. No other amp (not even the clone copies of Matchless amps) have this sparkling, swirling, 3-D richness to the tone that can still retain that clarity while being pushed into a thick, full, punchy tone. If possible... I'd suggest try trying one out somewhere, with your guitar of course, and see how it compares to say Orange amps. It's like night and day difference.

My friend who recommended I buy the Rocker 30 as my first amp also said I would probably love Matchless, just way more expensive. I honestly can see myself enjoying that sound, I love the idea of the Vox AC30 sound but it doesn't sound that big in a band mix and kind of gets muddied up easily. That's one reason why I was interested in the AD30, I thought it would be like a darkly voiced AC30 with more balls. Regardless the Matchless just seems so expensive for what it is, I like buying used and feel like I should be able to get a really decent amp from around 1000 to 1500. There's no dealers near me either.

So what do you guys think? I definitely want punchy-ness and the Fender Twin could honestly be useful for awhile. The headroom was great, I usually play my Rocker 30 with the Master all the way up in my band. It's not my dream amp but it could be a lot more useful in my band right now than what I have. I could just try a bunch of different pedals and get a bit shoegazey with it, it could work out well.

I also might trade the OR50 for an AD30 and play around with it. I really like the idea of a darkly voiced AC30 sound, it seems like it could be bright and biting when I want it and thick and meaty when I need it. Could cover my bases well but maybe it's not as punchy as I want? I can't find any to play around here so I'd just have to buy it and try it out for awhile.

Maybe even a vintage Orange? I've heard they sound huge and punchy and articulate and that could really work out for me, but I have no idea where to find one or how much they would be.

Thanks though, you guys have been a ton of help so far!

[snickerpuss]

My friend who recommended I buy the Rocker 30 as my first amp also said I would probably love Matchless, just way more expensive. I honestly can see myself enjoying that sound, I love the idea of the Vox AC30 sound but it doesn't sound that big in a band mix and kind of gets muddied up easily. That's one reason why I was interested in the AD30, I thought it would be like a darkly voiced AC30 with more balls. Regardless the Matchless just seems so expensive for what it is, I like buying used and feel like I should be able to get a really decent amp from around 1000 to 1500. There's no dealers near me either.

So what do you guys think? I definitely want punchy-ness and the Fender Twin could honestly be useful for awhile. The headroom was great, I usually play my Rocker 30 with the Master all the way up in my band. It's not my dream amp but it could be a lot more useful in my band right now than what I have. I could just try a bunch of different pedals and get a bit shoegazey with it, it could work out well.

I also might trade the OR50 for an AD30 and play around with it. I really like the idea of a darkly voiced AC30 sound, it seems like it could be bright and biting when I want it and thick and meaty when I need it. Could cover my bases well but maybe it's not as punchy as I want? I can't find any to play around here so I'd just have to buy it and try it out for awhile.

Maybe even a vintage Orange? I've heard they sound huge and punchy and articulate and that could really work out for me, but I have no idea where to find one or how much they would be.

Thanks though, you guys have been a ton of help so far!

I really think for the variety of tones you're looking for, a fender twin type is the best. The "buzzy" issue with the amp is the likely the EQ response to the Tele with Texas Specials. I had to set the Twin's eq with Treble at 10:30, Mids at 2:00 and bass at 11:00 for a "flat" eq, even with my dark humbuckered tele. Cranking the bass and treble on a 6L6 powered Fender amp with a bright Tele or Strat with hot single coils is a good way to achieve that bright buzz if you're not used to the EQ in those amps. Next time try really cranking those mids.

Old Oranges are amazing brutes of amps. They had unmatched punch for 70's EL34 amps and really opened up into this HUGE crunch when you pop the volume and gain past 3:00. The price you pay is that it's fairly difficult to find a nice one for a good price and they are loud. Very loud. Even the OR80s compared to the OR120s have a low difference in price and volume, which is why most go for the 120s when they do go that route. Coupling how cumbersome lugging those guys around with a 4x12 to friday night gigs in pub venues with the service and maintenance issues on those 40 year old amps has married me to the idea of the 2x12 combo really being the most useful and appropriate amp of this day and age.

I've had a couple people say that to me, and I always felt like I wasn't that into Fender. I much more enjoy the British crunch of Vox, Marshall, Orange, etc. Based on your recommendation and others though, I went and played one with my guitar and pedals, (65 Reissue) and honestly it did sound pretty great. It was extremely punchy, punchier than just about anything I've played and it took my pedals extremely well. I like to loop sometimes, and most of the time amps muddy up when I try to do too many loops. They were extremely clear and distinct on the twin.

I agree and absolutely share the sentiment. With pedals, Fender Twins are A-#1. They are the only amps I've played that (for some whatever ass ethereal reason) can take my board straight without an effects loop and sound real crisp. Being that they are the kings of pedal platforming, you can pick up a nice used twin for under $700, then buy a Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret for your British orange/marshall/laney crunch tones

(here's a demo of one through a Fender Twin with a Tele at the end)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQMtDTPyxo

...and get a Wampler Ace Thirty if ya gotta have those timeless Vox AC30/Matchless DC30 chimes and snarls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXEDxuhC99E

[Randy Bass]

My first observation is that you have only played your OR50 through terrible speakers (or not well-suited to the OR50, anyways) and you are already considering selling it, which is probably a bit hasty. I would at least try to play it through a 2x12 or 4x12 somewhere that's loaded with suitable speakers like G12H-30s, Vintage 30s, etc., before giving up. I would also try it with the Master Volume cranked if you want to get rid of the fuzz and find a little bit of sparkle. It's not the most transparent amp for cleans, but it's got decent headroom and sounds pretty similar to JCM800-type cleans to me if you keep the Gain relatively low. Different preamp tubes can tame the gain a bit too. I would also strongly suggest running a clean boost into the Rocker 30's Natural Channel if you have not done so. It would also be good to try the R30 with a bigger cab, preferably closed-back, if you are going for punch. The R30 is incredibly dynamic, much like the old OR120s, but at much more reasonable volumes. It's worth a little bit of effort with the amps you already have before you give them the boot IMO.

I would also try something with a little hotter pickups than a stock Tele to make sure you've got the right guitar for your ears.

The AD30 does seem like the best option on paper if you want to get the dark distorted tones from the amp rather than from dirt pedals and you want an AC30 vibe. The AD30 is not really punchy at all to me though. It's very compressed and spongy. It's hard to argue against a Fender as a pedal platform though, especially after you tried one and had positive results. Buy them all and give me the ones you don't want.