OR15H not cutting it in band situation

[lunchbox]

Ugh.

I was really, really excited yesterday to finally get to jam with some friends after 2 months of having my new gear. It didn't go so well tone wise.

Here's the basis: Orange OR15H, Marshall 1965A cab (4x10"s). We play hard, single string riffy, stoner, bluesy rock.

Playing with a bass and drummer I had to turn up to what would be 8/9 out of 10 just to be heard at what was our normal practice level before. I told my bass player to turn down a bit, and that helped. But when I heard my amp it sounded...transistory, thin, kind of having the characteristics of an old transistor radio. There was almost no bottom end whatsoever.

I thought that might just be the 10"s, but I plugged into a Mesa Recto cab that was in the studio which has those black shadow V30's, and it sounded the same: no balls, all highs and mids. And the Marshall cab with 10"s definitely sounded better/thicker than the Mesa cab with 12"s!

The amp sounds amazing at lower to medium levels. But when I turned it up with a band it lacked low end, was all mids/highs and fed back like crazy. It did cut through well though, I'll give it that. But again, no chunkiness whatsoever.

Maybe I need more efficient speakers? I've read that the Celestion G10L-35's in the 1965 cab are 95db rating. Celestion has some 10"s that are 97db sensitivity. But I don't think that's going to really add much bass.

I'm really disappointed right now. Not sure what I'm going to do, but I don't think this amp setup would be loud enough to play in the clubs in our area. None of them have PA systems to mic up amps; it's all stage volume except for vox and sometimes kick.

Is this just the EL84 tone? Or am I expecting too much out of a 15 watt amp? Both?? I used to jam on a friend's AD30 (EL84's also) about 10 years ago and that thing sounded huge!

What's wrong here?

[lunchbox]

I should add settings that I was using. They changed throughout the night as I tried to dial it in, but below is where I ended up with the best tone I could get out of it (from 0-10):

Treble- 4
Mid - 6
Bass - 10
Gain - 4-6 (any higher and it got too fizzy)
Master- 8-10

Pedals: Boss TU-3 tuner, Morley wah

I like to saturate the power tubes so I keep the gain back, so I know it wasn't over-saturated with pre-amp gain.

[Sergeantsnowball]

It seems to me that you've already mostly addressed the problems.
First off it's a 15-watt amp. One of the things you'll notice is that when you do get poweramp distortion out of cranking the volume, the tone shifts slighty and becomes sharper, more shrill, and focused on the highs/upper mids... A very low-wattage amp like the OR15 will break up very easily and very early, and in a band setting, it may or may not be the right kind of tone to be able to cut through well. Cranked amps sound great- Amps cranked to 10 not always so much.
Higher-wattage amplifiers tend to have a heavier, bassier sound because the greater headroom allows you to focus on preamp gain to really give your sound some balls and growl, which is why 100-watters are typically the standard for metal and hard rock, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're looking for. It does seem you're trying to get the right tone out of the wrong place though.

The other problem is the choice of speakers. 90% of Orange's cabs come stock with Celestion Vintage 30s, so that may be a good place to start if you're planning on keeping the OR15 or staying with the same brand. It's also worth noting that a 2x12 will always have a more saturated, bassier sound than a 1x12, and a 4x12 even moreso.

All in all, if your current rig isn't cutting it for you, just play around with some other amp configurations at the store. You're bound to find something that speaks to you and fits your needs well.'

Hope it helps!

[Invin]

The OR15h has an FX loop, yes? This might seem like an odd suggestion, but I use my Dispatch Master reverb with the depth maxed (not the mix) in the FX loop to add bottom end to my tone when I want it. It really fills out a tone that sounds nasal or high. It's like having an extra bass control that adds weight and warmth to the tone.

If the speakers you tried were V30-ish that probably just added to your mids and highs problem. You might do well with some efficient 12" speakers that are voiced for low end and less top.

[lunchbox]

I've ordered some new JJ EL84's and am going to see what that does for me. Crossing fingers...

[msmith4432]

First off you guys must play really loud! But secondly I used an or15 to gig with a few times and the big issue for me was bass response, it's just not there and yes it can get thin sounding, I sold it and went back exclusively to my Or50

[lunchbox]

First off you guys must play really loud! But secondly I used an or15 to gig with a few times and the big issue for me was bass response, it's just not there and yes it can get thin sounding, I sold it and went back exclusively to my Or50

So I'm not the only one. Good, thought I was the loner. I'm the only person I've read that's mentioned the bass issue, but I guess it's expected with EL84's(?).

I have a feeling that I'll be going back to something with EL34's and 30+ watts as well. I just have to keep it around the same price as the OR15. I can't afford anything more right now. Sure wish I could rock an OR50 though.

[0000]

A 15 watt, EL84 based amp with the volume cranked to nearly full, is not going to have rumbling lows. The OR15 is naturally a bit sharper and fuzzier in tone anyway. The transformers are simply not large enough.

Leave the low end to the bass player to fill.

A proper built EL84 amp CAN have tons of bass however. I had a single channel FARGEN 30w (switchable to 15w) amp, but it had four EL84's and much larger transformers. This amp could rumble the floors if I wanted.

[lunchbox]

Wasn't looking for rumbling lows, just a more well balanced tone overall. It seems excessively high/middy with hardly any lows to fill that end of the tone spectrum.

I'll try the new power tubes and see if that makes a difference. If not....then time to sell and move along.

[iblastoff]

not sure why you're disappointed with the bottom end of a 15 WATT amp. even my 30 watt dual terror isn't going to give me any bass. try an EQ pedal to see if that helps balance it out or something.

[apocalypsedude]

It goes without saying, Orange are GREAT amps, no denying that, but its all about having the right tool for the job, and unfortunately a 15 watter is just not going to give you the volume you need in this type of situation. I went through the same thing w the Rocker 30 (GREAT AMP!!!!) first I was using a 2x12 w V30s, couldnt hear myself over a Marshall 50 watt half stack, loud drummer and Ampeg 6x10. First thing I did was put the rig up on a sturdy barstool, while that helped the sound project more at ear level, the amp was very noisy because I was basically out of headroom. Then I got a 4x12 w/ V30s (solid Framus bottom cab), things improved, but it was really dependent on how loud the other guys were, and I was getting A LOT of hum and unwanted feedback from the amp. Putting in new power tubes and experimenting w a few NOS 12ax7 tubes in V1 helped a bit w the noise/hum level. Still though, I wasn't happy, headroom was still a problem. Now heres the thing, at certain gigs where we were mic'd, the Rocker 30 was perfect, because the sound guy was complaining about keeping the volume down, so I could only put the master at around 10 oclock, which to me is one of the sweet spots on the R30. I was happy as long as I got some feed in the monitor, but if I stepped away from the monitor, it was hard to hear my amp above the drums. I'm not used to playing this way, but in those situations, the Rocker 30 was great, but a lot of the places that I have played around here dont bother mic'ing the guitars either so in those cases it wasn't cutting it.

Eventually I found a deal on a used Ceriatone 2555 (Silver Jub ) clone that has an effects loop. I have no shortage of headroom now, big bottom end, because 4 EL34s somehow will always sound better than two I have an effects loop for my boost pedal, so my leads are heard over the band. Also the amp has a really smooth preamp and MV so you don't have to crank it so much to get a nice tone. Most of the time, the singer was asking me to turn it down! For me, my amp search ended, sure I wish I could afford an OR100, but I just dont need it at this point, and I'm happy to have my Rocker30 at home as my practice rig.

Id say start saving your pennies and look for a used deal on a 50 or 100 watter, some of those old Peavey VTMs ( supposedly all over Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger) and Sovtek Mig tube amps are great for stoner rock and can be found for dirt cheap if you keep your eye open. The Laney Pro Tube series is also a good one, if you can find em, its based on the JCM800 circuit, Kyle from The Sword was using one of those for a long time. If your looking for nice bottom end, stay away from Marshall JCM900, you will be disappointed. 800s are killer, but getting harder to find for cheap, because everyone is looking for them and knows what they are worth now. Of course to me Orange is the best, but not always the most affordable. Keep the OR15 for a home practice/backup amp, no pedal, speaker or tube swap is gonna give you more amp headroom, especially since you already tried a 4x12 and that didnt help.

[thelatrobe33]

I play a similar style of music and I'd never consider a 15w amp ideal for practice. I have a Dark Terror that I use for solo practice at home with an old Fender GE412 cab. It's just fine for practice, but it wouldn't cut it against the Triple Rectifier our other guitarist uses live.

I've been using my TH100/PPC412 for band practice. I run it in the 70W setting most of the time, almost always on the dirty channel. It's a great amp for what I'm using it for. It really puts the Triple Rectifier to shame.

As much as you probably don't want to hear it, you'd likely be much better served with an amp that's 50w or more for heavy music. Keep the OR15 for practice or recording.

[Boy_Narf]

Did you order new preamp tubes as well? A full JJ retube will cut out some of the high end harshness, boost the mids, and enhance the clarity a little.

[lunchbox]

As much as you probably don't want to hear it, you'd likely be much better served with an amp that's 50w or more for heavy music.

I think you're right. I sold a Laney GH50L to get this (was 'downsizing' because I felt I didn't need such a big amp at the time; couldn't find people to play with). Now I'm regretting that decision (since I've finally found people to play with again).

My budget is going to be whatever I can sell the OR15 for, so around $500-$600. I have too many family obligations to throw any more $$ at this (need to pay dental bills, credit card, etc.). I may look at going back to a GH50, but would like to take a hard look at a CR120 first. They sound really good in the demos I've listened to. With 120 watts it would definitely fix the volume issue! I've always been a fan of SUNN Beta Lead's and Marshall Mosfet 100's. This is supposed to be a high quality Orange version of both those amps, no?

[Boy_Narf]

What about a dual terror? Those can be had used for right around your budget.