Moving from Peavey to Orange rig

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:47 pm

Hi. I'm UK based and new to this forum. I joined because over recent weeks I've read a huge amount of threads on here and recognise the huge amount of Orange experience and knowledge. I've been playing rock/metal for almost 30 years, and only in recent years had the pleasure of playing through some Orange amps. And I love the tone. I just quit a hard rock/metal covers band, where I used my Engl or most recently my Peavey 6505 212 combo. I decided to take a break from playing for a while, got a Tiny Terror and Orange 112 for home practice after loving the classic valve tone in my local store. The break from band playing didn't last long; I've got myself involved with a four piece classic rock covers band and hope to get out gigging soon. But I have a real dilemma. I love the Orange tone, but the Tiny Terror and 112 at full pelt only just gets me to acceptable rhythm volumes (loud drummer!); with no headroom for big overdriven leads, even with a TS9 boost. I'm the only guitarist, so the lead needs a good volume boost to compensate for no rhythm guitar behind lead breaks. So for rehearsals I resorted back to my 6505 212, but it's a modern metal voiced amp, which used to be great for metal but now for classic rock is a little aggressive. My options are stick with the 6505 but change speakers from the Sheffield stock units, looking for something more mellow (but I still to use moderate gain, pinch harmonics, etc, I use active pickup Schecter guitars). Or stick with the TT and get another 112. Or a 212. Or upgrade to the Dual Terror and an Orange 212 cab (or two?). I've read so many conflicting stories about whether the DT will give me more volume I need than the TT (I've read all the maths about 3db barely perceptible increase). Same for 112 closed versus 212 open cabs. My goal is to have a portable Orange rig which is pushed hard at the volumes we play for practice and small unmic'd gigs, with some room to go for boosted leads. Not too worried about cleans, they're clean enough when i roll of the guitar volume pot. Also my health requires that I downsize, hence my interest in the TT and small cab to start with - that 6505 212 really is a beast to move around. So Rockerverbs are not an option unfortunately. I know it's going over old ground for you Orange experts, but I wanted some expert opinion related to my personal circumstances if you don't mind. Thanks in advance!!!!

Boy_Narf · Post by **Boy_Narf** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:13 am

Hey,

Doubling the wattage does not mean double the volume. Usually about a 3 db increase is it. You will get a bit more headroom, but cleans might still be an issue at high volumes.

Regarding the PPC112 vs the PPC212. I would go for the PPC212. There is much more bottom end, and so much more punch you will be amazed (I'm talking about the closed back version). Some people even say the PPC212 is comparable to a 412 cabs from other brands.

The upside of the Dual Terror is that you can ditch the overdrive pedal. Use one channel for rhythm, and the other for Leads. If you have the cash to spare, I would get a Dual Terror and PPC212CB. That being said, the TT is decently loud. Perhaps you could try micing your amp and dropping the master volume a little bit.

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:26 am

Hey, thanks for the response. Cleans are not an issue for me. I know doubling TT 15W to DT 30W would give me only 3db, which apparently is "noticeable" but not huge (although saying that, doubling again would take me to the 6505 212 60W which I know from my own experience is monstrously loud!). The upgrade from 112 to 212 seems like a no brainer, but my band mates have recommend the open back to help with dispersion and to get away from the boxy sounding closed back. According to several posts on here and other forums, I could expect +3db from the DT compared to the TT, and +3db by doubling the speakers from 112 to 212, which mathematically should get me to something similar volume-wise to my 6505 212. But I find this hard to believe, and the doubling speaker thing giving +3db argument has to fall down eventually; a TT into 8 speaker cabs would surely not give me the equivalent of a 120W valve amp!!!! Mic'ing may be a possibility, but based on recent small gig venue experience I want at least capacity to have a decent gigging rig without mic'ing. As I said, with my drummer the TT with 112 just manages rhythm levels. So do you guys think DT plus 212 open back will give me enough volume increase to cope with the leads?

Boy_Narf · Post by **Boy_Narf** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:32 am

I think it would work great for you.

Have you considered a used Rockerverb 50? I'm sure you can find one for close to the DT retail price.

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:38 am

I have considered a RV50 MkII, and played one, I loved it. But I have health issues which need me to stop carrying huge lumps of kit around. So if the DT + 212 would do what I need, it has to be the best solution for me. In the UK even a used RV would cost double RRP on a DT, and I'd be looking at a used DT anyway, so a big cash difference!

Spaceboy1 · Post by **Spaceboy1** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:46 am

The Dual Terror is a very noticeable increase in volume, headroom, and 'beefiness' to the lowend from the Tiny Terror. I basically went through the same progression you have, from 'metal amps' like the 5150 to a TT, then DT, now RV. The DT can hang much better with a drummer, although an unmic'd gig could be a challenge. I'm fairly confident the DT could pull through though. I was gigging about twice monthly with mine until I bought a Rockerverb. Even after I "upgraded", I missed the Terror tone and bought another Tiny Terror for home practice.

Also, a speaker change and more use of the 5150 green (rhythm) channel would another great option, especially with a good overdrive in front. The green channel is severely underrated and many people mistakenly think of it as a clean channel, which is incorrect because it was designed as EVH's rhythm tone, and he rarely used true cleans. So, that amp does not have a clean channel at all. The stock Sheffields are not great, I would personally look around for some Greenback-style speaker, as they are underrated and magic with 5150s.

DiabloS · Post by **DiabloS** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:02 am

Your story sounds VERY similar to mine! I was in a metal band several years ago playing a Peavey 5150 60 Watt combo (basically the same amp), which I still think is fantastic for metal. I eventually tried a Tiny Terror and I've bought 5 Orange amps since, also playing more classic rock influenced music since then.

You sound like a great candidate for the Dual Terror. It's perfect for what you're describing, better than any of the other Orange amps I've either owned or played. The fact that you have 2 channels that sound pretty similar makes getting a lead boost channel out of it easy to set up and works great!

I've played many loud rock shows with the DT and never once struggled for volume. I did a few times with the TT, but the DT's extra wattage gets you in that sweet spot where you'll never really need more volume. I've played with loud drummers and never had to go past 12 o'clock on the volume knob when then gain is set around 2 o'clock.

If you want to keep your setup lightweight and easy to carry, I'd avoid the Orange PPC212CB (closed back). It's heavy and awkward to carry. If you want to go with Orange for a cab, get the Orange PPC212OB (open back), it's much smaller and lighter because of the diagonal positioning of the speakers. For classic rock, the open back will sound good and will fill up a room. I paid $30 to have mine closed since I play heavy rock and wanted more low end, but either way that cab will be cheaper and lighter even if you have to pay to modify it to a closed back.

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:08 am

Spaceboy1, that's really interesting that you've been through my pain before, thanks for posting! I've recently discovered that the low gain input on the rhythm channel on the 6505 212 gives some fantastic classic rock overdrive tones, but the lead channel really is harsh. My last band practice I used the 6505 low gain input and rhythm channel only, with TS9 boost for leads. It worked great volume-wise, but I still prefer the Orange vintage valve tone for classic rock. The Peavey is just too modern sounding, and I don't suppose any speaker or valve change will get close to the Orange tone (although I'm sure there's room for improvement over the stock speakers and valves……..!

DiabloS; again another person who's been through my dilemma. Thanks for your input, it seems Dual Terror and 212 is the way for me to go! Always thought I'd get good feedback from this forum, but not so quickly! Thanks guys.

Spaceboy1 · Post by **Spaceboy1** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:16 am

I will second DiabloS' comments on the closed-back 212. It's huge and heavy! You should definitely go for the open-back if you want a 212 and have weight/size concerns, it may be better suited for classic rock anyway. The 112 you already own may be all that's need though, so try that with a Dual Terror before pumping money into another cabinet. Go have a blast!

jasondunringill · Post by **jasondunringill** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:54 am

I can only reinforce what the other guys are saying, DT and the 212 is the way to go. I gig with exactly that and with the gain set at 10 o'clock and volume around 2 (I use pedals for overdriven tones) it's way loud enough for gigging and can certainly match our drummer, even when he's getting carried away. I upgraded from the TT as I wanted more headroom but loved the tone, on paper the volume increase doesn't sound much with the extra wattage but in reality it feels much louder. I use the open back cab, very loud, light and portable.
I have the fat channel set for a dirty sound with the gain at 2 o'clock and can't really up the volume past halfway without it getting too loud but rarely use this as I love the TT channel.

Edit: I use my ppc112 for practices as it's smaller and easier for carrying, it is loud enough and I'm sure I could gig with it if required but the 212 sound fills the room much better.

a.hun · Post by **a.hun** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:51 am

DrSlackBladder wrote: According to several posts on here and other forums, I could expect +3db from the DT compared to the TT, and +3db by doubling the speakers from 112 to 212, which mathematically should get me to something similar volume-wise to my 6505 212. But I find this hard to believe, and the doubling speaker thing giving +3db argument has to fall down eventually; a TT into 8 speaker cabs would surely not give me the equivalent of a 120W valve amp!!!!

Hi Doc. Welcome!

Well doubling the speakers won't quite gain you as much as +3dB. It varies but 'a couple' is more likely real world. What you will get is more girth to the sound, just a bigger sound, and especially with an open back a better sound spread around the room. Amp and speaker tonalities play a part too, some amps / speakers simply sounding louder for a given wattage.

Other big factor for speaker volume is 'sensitivity' or speaker efficiency. How loud they get for a given power input. The V.30s in the Orange cabs are rated at 100dB/W/m, fairly efficient and quite possibly a little louder than the stock Peavey drivers.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=108692" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd have thought a DT and open back PPC212 would get you there fine.

Andy.

Bensnake · Post by **Bensnake** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:38 pm

Considered an OR50? Just one channel though... Combined with an open back 212 you'll get a portable rig which will sound awesome for your requirements and with more power/clean headroom compared to the DT.

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:01 pm

I have considered the OR50; like the idea of extra power without going mad, but as you say only single channel, also heavier being wooden sleeved. Liking the idea of the lunch box no wood heads to give me real portability. DT plus 212 seems the best compromise so far. Even considering Vox night train, but never played one or even heard one. I don't expect Vox is liked on an Orange forum (!) but does anyone have any good or bad things to say about the night train 50 head to help me decide?

a.hun · Post by **a.hun** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:45 am

DrSlackBladder wrote:Liking the idea of the lunch box no wood heads to give me real portability. DT plus 212 seems the best compromise so far. Even considering Vox night train, but never played one or even heard one. I don't expect Vox is liked on an Orange forum (!) but does anyone have any good or bad things to say about the night train 50 head to help me decide?

Oh you'll find plenty of Vox fans here. Vox and Orange amps compliment each other really well - either one player using both together or two guitarists using them for different sounds. My old AC30 is easily the most characterful sounding amp I've ever played, and that's quite a few now.

Don't know a thing about the Night Train though. You'd have to try it yourself anyway!

Andy.

DrSlackBladder · Post by **DrSlackBladder** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:51 pm

Ok, I've made some progress, but got another dilemma. The desire for an Orange rig has grown beyond the point of return now. And I picked up an open back 212 cab yesterday at a guitar show. Looking forward to seeing how much extra volume/spread the 212 gives with the TT over the 112 closed back cab. But I still suspect 15W TT won't be enough volume for my loud drummer hard rock band, so until yesterday I was expecting that I'll swap out the TT for a Dual Terror 30W, expecting that it gives me what I need without going too expensive/heavyweight on the head.
BUT, at the show I played an OR15 head through the 212 and it sounded amazing, albeit not cranked or in a band setting. Still has the classic British overdrive for classic rock but with four gain stages I hit hard rock heaven with a real crunch turning gain past about 2 o'clock. I'd love to have the versatility to throw in the odd well known Metallica cover into our setlist, which the OR15 appears to be able do with ease but the TT couldn't. I'm assuming that volume-wise the OR15 and TT should be similar, right? So then ideally I'd want a 30W OR15, but that doesn't exist. The OR50 is too heavy (in weight, not tone) and costly for my situation right now (after all, I went from Peavey 6505 212 to Orange head/cab to make transportation easier!). What other options are out there? Does a TH30 have the OR15 extra gain over the TT and DT? I've read that TH30s have reliability issues? Would a DT with my TS9 tubescreamer get me to OR15 tone/gain? Did I just think the OR15 soured much fuller/punchier than my TT because so far I've only ever played my TT through the 112 and the OR15 through a 212?

Thanks again for the help in choosing my new Orange gigging rig!