How to get more gain out of my rockerverb 100

[rpadams]

i mean technically were a "heavy" band. screaming vocals etc. just how high should i turn my gain on for a live show? here is a couple youtube clips of us live if this helps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D73_HJm3oPA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this was basically made up on the spot i'm in the black shirt playing thru the orange yes my singing sucks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29zEKBsGhE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is with the other guitar play the deadlocked guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP9YOIVNx7s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

C.o.C albatross cover no vocals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksCjAutTzWE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

weedeater cover used a bigmuff (live this tone sounds HUGE) just a wall of sounds


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzG286x5w60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

heres the song i showed you guys that we recorded.

lemme know what you guys think of the tone and whatnot live? be brutal on me it doesnt matter im trying to get better with this stuff!
and thanks so much for the help guys really appreciate it!

[fiveightandten]

Wow man thanks for the knowledge i just learned more in 5 min then i have in the past 5 years dealing with people from the guitar store. But i get what your saying dial back the gain and add in the mids wayyy more. It's just gonna be hard as im not used to it. Ok I've been looking around and I know that the band Down phil anselmo's band uses orange and i love their tone. How can i get closest to that because i have very similiar equipment. It seems like they use a crapload of gain? Also yeah not really trying to sound "southern" but that just groovy get your head bobbin type of music is what were looking for. None of us listen to metalcore bands and really the only metal band we listen to is Pantera basically. Were from maryland and i actually know the singer from clutch personally so they are a huge influence on us. We listen alot of underground stuff. A.S.G if you havent heard them check them out very very underrated band. Weedeater,clutch,c.o.c,down,i listen alot of modern country eric church etc lots of blues,lots of punk rock offspring type stuff, even all the way to CKY type stuff. But anyway enough of the rant Thanks so much for the info brother appreciate it.

It's always odd to make a change, but I really do think you could benefit a lot from getting rid of that gain and adding mids. It may seem counterintuitive, but less gain sounds heavier. You'll have to *play* the guitar though. And it will feel like your playing is more exposed. It will be. You'll feel naked at first. But get used to being aggressive with your right hand and use your pick attack to sound heavy. The amp with less gain will respond MUCH better and you'll start to feel it respond as an extension of the guitar. Right now, it's so gained out, there's no dynamic response at all.

To put it in prospective, I play pretty low amounts of gain, with the amp cranked up literally wide open, and with my pickups backed off pretty much flush with the pickup surrounds. I started playing in a cover band recently. We do Stone the Crow, You can't stop progress (Clutch), some in Flames and at the Gates songs, 3 Tool songs, Curl of the burl (Mastadon), and a good amount of other heavy stuff.

The other guitar player is using a 5150 into a 4x12, no mids and tons of gain. I play my AD30 2x12 combo (yes, I use an AD30 to play metal songs). He knows I sound more present, he knows he uses too much gain. But he's been doing it so long he feels naked without all that gain squashing everything. We've switched rigs for a song or 2 just for kicks. I felt completely disconnected playing his setup, and he felt completely exposed and naked playing mine.

It's something you have to get used to. But from someone who used to use way too much gain, I can tell you that there's a reason I made the change and didn't go back.

i mean technically were a "heavy" band. screaming vocals etc. just how high should i turn my gain on for a live show? here is a couple youtube clips of us live if this helps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D73_HJm3oPA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this was basically made up on the spot i'm in the black shirt playing thru the orange yes my singing sucks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29zEKBsGhE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is with the other guitar play the deadlocked guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP9YOIVNx7s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

C.o.C albatross cover no vocals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksCjAutTzWE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

weedeater cover used a bigmuff (live this tone sounds HUGE) just a wall of sounds


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzG286x5w60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

heres the song i showed you guys that we recorded.

lemme know what you guys think of the tone and whatnot live? be brutal on me it doesnt matter im trying to get better with this stuff!
and thanks so much for the help guys really appreciate it!

Those songs are good. The playing is good, and the songwriting is good. But, see how your amp is feeding back uncontrollably when you stand near it...even with your hands over the strings? That means you're using so much gain that the minute vibration of the pickup polepieces is causing feedback. WAY too much gain if you're causing microphonic feedback on a Gibson solid body.

We hear with our ears, our eyes, and our heads. Don't get caught up in mixing what you *think* your amp sounds like, with what it actually sounds like. Only you know what you play as well as you do. It's very easy to hear the notes in your head as you're playing, and mistake that for extra note clarity that isn't actually there. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Your ears will also pick out the notes and ignore any garbage frequencies, more than someone in the audience that isn't intimately familiar with what notes are being played.

As a general rule, always use less gain and less treble than you think you need. It compensates for those things, and compensates for your ears being slightly shot and the people in the audience having more upper register sensitivity because they aren't sitting in a garage with blaring guitar amps every week.

-Nick

[myboss57]

That is pretty much the best explanation I've heard of what you should go for. It's exactly how it was for me when I got my Orange OD120, I had a Rockerverb 100 before that and a Line 6 before that. Let's just say it was a process. But when you have non-musicians commenting to you on good the guitar sounds you'll know you're there.

Less is definitely more and it will make you appreciate the subtleties of your playing!

[jax510]

is it possible for someone to play your guitar parts with the band while you listen to what happens when you tweak your sound? when you are standing back and away hearing it instead of being next to everything that might help you dial in what you want everyone to hear.

[rpadams]

Awesome fellas really gave me an eye opener! Thanks for the insight we have a show coming up and defiantly need to keep our sound in check! And awesome man stone the crow is my favorite down song! How much gain are those guys using?

[rpadams]

Yes I can get my buddy to play my parts while I tweak the sound.

[Woodsie]

I learned to back the gain off too. It's really hard to be objective when you're standing right in front of it all the time. I love to get my brother to play my rig and stand back and listen to it. It doesn't hurt that he's an amazing guitar player. By doing this, I figured out the "less is more" gain trick. We play classic to somewhat hard rock in my cover band, I never run the gain past 1 o'clock. If I need any more, I have a GT-OD set for clean boost.

And, for god's sake man, get the beer off of the head. You're asking for trouble there.

[rpadams]

Lmao! About the beer it's never fallen ever! The head really doesn't rattle that much! Would a tube screamer maybe help out to tighten my tone a bit or should I just plug straight in amp and rip?

[tarfungo]

Folks need to remember that when playing in a band, whether that be live or in a studio, you MUST carve out sonic spaces for ALL of your instruments. This is what a good FOH guy or engineer/mixer will do. A band is not made up of a bunch of guys with amazing individual tone all competing to be the biggest sound on stage.

You'd be surprised how much low end guitar can and is rolled OFF in a pro band situation - even if the song 'sounds' low-frequency heavy. The bass and kick occupy that space mostly, so they should be focused here from the start. The guitars then need to be sculpted around the bass and kick in most cases. You should NEVER expect your 'perfect' bedroom sound to be used in a live situation or on tape. And, as others have said, the amount of distortion you can add to your guitar when playing alone is not always the same as when playing in a group.

Think about it, you never hear heavy, distorted bands all muddied up and muffled on professional recordings. That's because someone took the time to find a 'space ' for each and every instrument including carving out a 'space' for the vocalist. For example, in a heavy distorted band situation, the rhythm guitar may pull back his or her mids quite a bit while the lead guitarist pushes his or hers. The kick may have a lot of the extreme lows rolled off thus allowing the bass to be huge down there. This way both guitars aren't fighting for the same sonic 'mid space' and the bass and kick aren't fighting for the same low frequencies. This opens up the sound, makes things clearer sounding and allows more energy to be pushed thus giving that 'big sound' everyone is looking for. Music is about contrasting sound as much as it is about melding sound.

Good sound doesn't just 'happen'; it's an art that needs to be practiced like any other aspect of music.

[Woodsie]

Try a Tube Screamer. You might like it. I do

[fiveightandten]

Lmao! About the beer it's never fallen ever! The head really doesn't rattle that much! Would a tube screamer maybe help out to tighten my tone a bit or should I just plug straight in amp and rip?

IMO, don't turn to pedals unless you aren't getting what you need from the amp. Even then, if you need a pedal to get overdrive you're happy with, you probably need a different amp. A lot of guys use pedals for leads, that's a different subject altogether though.

Guitar >> amp.

That's all you need with an amp like that.

-Put all the EQ knobs on 5.

-Turn the gain on ZERO with the master on 5.

-Slowly turn the gain up until it starts to distort. Unfortunately, there's no way to describe how much is enough. Just go with the absolute minimum amount of gain you feel comfortable using...then turn it down a notch or two from there. I'm actually being serious.

-Turn the master up to the volume you require. Keep in mind that turning the volume up also makes the amp distort more, so you usually have to turn the gain down a bit to even things out. Also note, I said turn the master UP from being on 5, not down. If you have to turn the amp below 5 to sit in with the band, the amp is too loud. Try half power. If that's still too loud you need a lower powered amp. I generally use 30W amps, and I am giving people in the front row new hair styles in some of the places we play (remember, lower gain and mids is perceived as a lot louder). A lower powered amp running full bore will sound better than a higher powered amp running well below its potential (all things being equal).


Hope that helps. This stuff really will make a difference. Not to sound like an ass, but i've had bands ask me to come to their practice space and help them out with tones and volume, so i've done this kind of thing before. When people are receptive (like you're being), only positive things can come from it. The very worst that can happen is you decide we're full of BS and keep doing it how you have been.

-Nick

[rpadams]

Is that what all metal bands do? they back off the distortion? how do they still make it sounds so heavy and whatnot live? im talking about the band Down most i've seen them live 5 times and their tone is killer

[0000]

Down uses Orange Thunderverb 50's into Orange cabs w/ Vintage 30's, both guitarists. I believe they primarely use the amps gain too, and tubescreamers for an extra boost when needed. They also play EMG pickups, which contribute a lot to their guitar tone.

Really, you should be able to dial in a killer tone by just plugging your guitar straight into the amp. You just have WAY too much gain/treble and not enough mid tones. You're wanting your tone to be "huge" and an epic wall of sound or whatnot, but it's actually the total opposite... it's thin, brittle, and piercing to the ears. If I saw your band play, I'd leave the room just because of the guitar tone. Honestly.

I think the only band that can successfully pull off playing with this amount of treble on guitar is Arab on Radar, but they were using solid aluminum guitars running their amps into small tweeter speakers at massive volume. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkj50A5PdF0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tizzer]

I play a rockerverb 100 too and I play everything from pop punk to death metal. I don't think I've ever needed to turn the gain past 6. I usually keep it about halfway up. I've got a maxon od808 that I use with the drive all the way down just to add some pick attack when I need it.

When I first got the rockerverb I was really tempted to crank the gain, but it was actually recording that taught me to back off. I put a mic to my amp and recorded it, and I found listening back that it sounded way more noisy/harsh than it sounded in the room. I backed off the gain and took down the treble and the recording sounded waaay better. I've kept those settings and now I prefer a little less gain in all environments.

I actually remember watching an interview with the guys in Gojira where they mentioned that people might be surprised at how little gain they use. Can't remember which video it was though.

[rpadams]

That's crazy! I figured they had the gain cranked with another set gain ontop. But today is band practice and ill back way off the gain and hopefully well sound killer cause honostly our tone sounded like pile of poop now that u guys have opened my eyes.