Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Orange Amps General Forum

Moderator: bclaire

Post Reply
Jondog
Duke of Orange
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:16 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by Jondog » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:14 pm

I subscribe to this guy, Scott Groves, on YouTube. Does a lot if interesting videos about gear and common misconceptions. For the most part he comes across as an a$$, but he's got a lot of gear and a lot of experience as a professional musician mostly in country music I think. He knows a lot , maybe not as much as he thinks he does at times, but I enjoy listening. Good info. Tube vs solid state comes up quite a bit on the forum so thought I'd post it. This ones 40 minutes so get comfy.
http://youtu.be/mUNAUgObyS8
Image

msmith4432
Orange Master
Posts: 1170
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:30 pm
Location: Cleveland, Oh

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by msmith4432 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:51 pm

As far as comparable wattage, tube amps are louder. A 25 watt tube amp will be louder than a 25 watt solid state.
Mesa boogie Stiletto ace
OR 50 40th anniversary
Orange CS50
Orange 2x12 ppc
Avatar 2x12 G12-65s
Mesa Boogie wide body 1x12
Gibson Les Paul custom black beauty(maple Fretboard)
Gibson Les Paul custom 58 vos
Gibson les Paul custom 57 vos

ironlung40
Orange Master
Posts: 2851
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:10 pm
Location: USA (in the south)

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by ironlung40 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:18 pm

Is a frog's ass water tight?

All things being equal
Sincerely,
Ironlung40
OR120 Pix/text
Tiny Terror HW
Rocker 30 combo
Rockververb 100 MKII
Thunderverb 200
Gibson SG 61 RI
Image

Randy Bass
Lord of Orange
Posts: 10149
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:44 am

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by Randy Bass » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:19 am

ironlung40 wrote:Is a frog's ass water tight?

All things being equal
It's hard to argue with that :D .
_________________
Image

OrangePaul
Orange Master
Posts: 2785
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:21 am
Location: UK

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by OrangePaul » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:42 am

Where is Andy when u need him to bring some sense into a debate? :D
Paul.

Image

Randy Bass
Lord of Orange
Posts: 10149
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:44 am

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by Randy Bass » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:36 pm

I think he's on vacation...er...holiday.
_________________
Image

jojo68
Orange Master
Posts: 1179
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:43 pm

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by jojo68 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:02 pm

The other guitarist in my band has a sunn beta lead 2x12 combo that's the loudest amp I've ever heard. On 5 it slays all my 100 + watt tube amps . Yes is my answer

sizzlingbadger
Orange Hero
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:13 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by sizzlingbadger » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:29 pm

In simple terms...

If you are dissipating 10 watts into a speaker from a tube or transistor amp the volume is the same.

The way that solid state amps and tube amps are labelled/rated is what makes tube amps seem louder for their stated wattage.

Jondog
Duke of Orange
Posts: 7234
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:16 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by Jondog » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:52 pm

Did anyone watch the vid? It explains it quite well.
Image

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by a.hun » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:06 pm

Jondog wrote:Did anyone watch the vid? It explains it quite well.
I ploughed through the first 1/4 hour. I find the guy is pretty much distilled anaesthetic I'm afraid, monotonous voice and labouring his points at least as badly as I do posting here.

And unfortunately he is also talking some complete distilled BS. :?

Already disagreeing with enough things he said to discount whatever else he is saying as being built on quicksand. Quite frankly he is making stuff up there, especially about speakers, plucking figures out of the air for starters.

An amp's peak power rating isn't 'what it can do once' before blowing up. It is what an amp can put out momentarily when pushed in normal use. As opposed to how much output power it can sustain.
He is right of course that you want to look at the RMS power ratings for realistic comparisons.

At 10 minutes into the video he says he is sitting in front of a 136dB sensitive speaker. (Mentions Electrovoice a little later.)
Yeah right - doesn't exist, not even when reduced to 131dB as he does a few minutes later...! :roll:

Most efficient guitar drivers I've ever come across were around 103dB sensitivity for 1 watt input... (Celestion ratings.) Can't even be that he's talking about maximum output at maximum power handling. To get 136dB out of a 103dB sensitive driver would take over 2,000W. Want to show me a 2kW guitar driver? Something badly wrong there - does not compute! :roll:

Oh and he puts a figure of 85dB on the speaker in his 10W Marshall. Doubt that almost as much. Even the cheapest least efficient 12" guitar drivers I've ever heard of were around the 94dB/W/m efficiency range. Far more efficient than general audio drivers.

He also mentions Bose speakers as being like the cheapos fitted to that amp. Well, audio and guitar drivers are very different things. And some of the best small venue PA sounds I've ever heard were made using Bose systems. (That both in the early '80s and the last time I hit a certain live music bar in Edam.) I think Bose probably know a great deal more about speaker design than he does.
Sorry but that guy really 'isn't exactly sussed' on the technical side. (I'm putting it very mildly and politely here!) Apologies but I may well not bother finishing that video!


Watts are watts, yeah. Solid state watts and valve watts are the same things, indeed. But no, they don't always sound exactly as loud!
Especially when a valve amp is driven to and beyond it's clean capabilities the harmonic distortion (actual harmonics being added to the signal) sounds louder than the wattage would suggest. When you push valve amps harder there are progressively more added harmonics (along with the distortion), and this mainly happens in the midrange making things actually sound louder.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... stcount=14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also when most valve amps are taken past their rated clean power (probably actually rated at 5% distortion or so, still pretty clean sounding with a valve amp) they will continue to put out more actual sustained average (RMS) power. Sometimes up to about double the actual clean output when fully distorted if the circuit and components are up to it.

When a solid state amp hits it's clean volume limit though it rapidly goes into nasty sounding (and nasty for speakers) hard clipping distortion. It will also put out up to double it's clean power but that happens very fast - not nearly so progressively, and apart from sounding really bad the 'hard clipping' from overdriven s.s. output sections is also extremely good at blowing speakers. Basically in real use s.s. amps are limited to their clean rating as far as actual usable power is concerned. Valve amps aren't!

So not only will a good 100W valve amp normally sound louder than a good 100W s.s. amp at similar power levels, but it will actually put out way more usable power when you get it distorting. My "100 watt" Hiwatt with four nice old Mullard EL34s will put out 135WRMS clean (1000Hz signal), but possibly in the region of 250W flat out. A 100W s.s. amp will put out 100W clean, then distort nastily - unusably in fact - if you try to push it any harder. You are stuck at around 100W of usable power.

No it isn't all just down to speaker sensitivity. Sure cheap solid state combos will have cheap (and relatively inefficient) speakers. So what? Put the same amp through a more efficient speaker it'll be louder but it won't suddenly be a valve amp.

No, especially when you aren't talking purely clean performance valve amps of a given wattage will almost always sound louder than solid state amps of similar output ratings. For distorted guitar sounds to compete with a hard driven valve guitar amp a s.s. amp would easily need around 2-3 times the wattage rating for similar effect. For similar clean levels though you'd need a similar power rated valve amp. Watts are watts! :wink:

If you know me you'll know that I'm mainly a bassist, and that I'm not at all allergic to really good solid state amps. In fact I love them too, almost as much as really nice valve amps.
For bass amps which are mostly run pretty clean the performance differences are often rather smaller. Old s.s. 'Acoustic' bass rigs were the main competition for the big all valve Ampeg SVT heavyweights after all. Pretty much up there in performance and also sounded great. I have a great 100W s.s. bass combo which not only sounds killer but will do surprisingly big gigs. That is down to very good amp (& cab / speaker) design. I also have a 3kg class D s.s. head (valve preamp doesn't count!) which ex all valve Ampeg SVT users are saying out grunts their old amps. That is 3kg vs. 40+kg. It isn't as if there aren't strong arguments for good solid state designs too... :wink:

Best sounding loud clean guitar amps ever IMO?
Fenders, Hiwatts, Roland JC120.


Andy.
Last edited by a.hun on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

a.hun
Duke of Orange
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:05 am
Location: Amsterdam, Hollandland.nl

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by a.hun » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:27 am

Sorry Jondog I did watch the whole thing through, but for amusement value mainly.

This guy is actually hilarious. Honestly, he knows a lot less than he is pretending. There are a few good points sprinkled among some real howlers there.

He doesn't have decibels clear in his head at all for starters. (Listen through about 18:30 - 20:20 again.) Yes +3dB takes double the power. Yes double the volume takes +10dB. But then he goes on to start adding +3dB ten times (= +30dB!) to get double the volume. Wrong!!! :?
Needs to look here:
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And indeed, according to him all speakers under 100dB rated are "crappy, horrible, will suck the sound out of your amp"! Well that is just about every guitar speaker ever made then. 100dB is pretty efficient. (And once again, 130+dB guitar drivers DON'T EXIST!!!)

Talking about impedances (@ about 29:15), well he CLEARLY doesn't know even the most basic difference between valve and solid state amps. He says that any amps (doesn't matter which, PA, bass, guitar) will put out more power into less ohms. Well that is true of s.s. amps, but not of valve amps which will put out their full power rating into any correctly impedance matched load they can handle. He talks about your big 100WRMS 'at 8 ohms' rated Marshall stack, (contrasting it at one point to 'crappy s.s.'!), then goes on to suggest that it'll magically put out about 175W at 4 ohms. Yeah? No, total BS...!

Sorry friend, but this guy just ain't no internet amp guru. He is waffling, pure and simple. You should always take anything on the internet (including what I say :wink:) with a pinch of salt. But in his case I'd be investing in a big sack of it. Word to the wise my friend: Don't pay him any attention at all - he really doesn't know what he is talking about!


Andy.
aNDyH. :wink:

Ever tried to outstare a mirror?

In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap, and much more difficult to find!

OrangePaul
Orange Master
Posts: 2785
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:21 am
Location: UK

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by OrangePaul » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:48 pm

This is an interesting general chart I came across for dB's

link here - http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

It also includes a section on recommended daily exposure times...
Paul.

Image

jax510
Rocker
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:31 am
Location: Rocky Mountains of USA

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by jax510 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:44 am

OrangePaul wrote:This is an interesting general chart I came across for dB's

link here - http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

It also includes a section on recommended daily exposure times...
I like how it says amplifier, rock, 120db haha wish I could practice at even close to that

jesperbc
Orange Hero
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:19 pm
Location: Odense, Denmark

Re: Are tube amps louder than solid state..

Post by jesperbc » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

I had a Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX - 120w solid state modelling amp with Celestion NeoDog speakers in it. Played it really loud almost all the time. That thing crapped out faster than my little brother, when I snuck up on him while he was watching "The Blair Witch Project"!

It did however sound really good when using the Mesa/Boogie, Marshall and Soldano models - not like the real thing, but it produced some really saturated high gain distortion, very loudly!

You can actually hear it in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dgnhck5twk, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iN0klL8twg and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S5gEsFwSj8.
Gear: Orange Rocker 30 head, Orange TH100 head, Orange PPC212OB cab, pedals galore, Fender MIJ 52 RI Tele w. BKP Blackguard Flat '52s, Fender MIA Standard Strat w. Fender CS Fat '50s, ESP LTD MH-1000 w. BKP (AlNiCo) Nailbomb/VHII.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 98 guests