Micro T vs Tiny T help?

[botfly]

Can someone give me some insights on watts?
Im a little confused with this.
I bought a micro terror 20W, I havent had the chance to use it with a full band but as reviews say it can handle small venues.
I thought about the tiny terror but its only 15w and it cost edit.
I always thought watts=power so why does 15w cost more than 20w.
I would like to buy a TT but want to make sure it out due the MT in volume while playing with a full band? (I have a loud drummer)
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I'm new to the whole tube amp thing.

[Jondog]

Watts is power, but not volume. Micro terror only has a tube preamp, solid state power amp. Tiny terror is all tube preamp and power amp. So, they'll have a very different texture and feel when the power amp is pushed. Tube amps have more expensive parts, such as transformers which add to the richness of the tone if they are quality. A 15 watt tube amp will be louder then 15 watt solid state. If a solid state amps power section is pushed, it will most likely clip and not sound good. If a tube amp power section is pushed it will saturate into distortion.

[ScottyDanger]

The Tiny Terror will be much louder than the Micro Terror, and it will sound wayyyyy better.

Also, you can't really mention prices here on the forum, so you should probably edit that number out. Speaking of that number you wrote, you can find new or refurbished tiny terrors for SIGNIFICANTLY less than that. Take a look around, top orange dealer humbucker music is a good place to start

[botfly]

Thanks for replies and the info.
I'm on a tight budget but I really want to get the tiny terror. I wanted to make sure it was loud enough to carry over my drummer before I bought it and 15w seemed low compared to my 100w ss marshall.
Some places we play at dont have a PA so I have to really crank the volume.

[jason41224]

Thanks for replies and the info.
I'm on a tight budget but I really want to get the tiny terror. I wanted to make sure it was loud enough to carry over my drummer before I bought it and 15w seemed low compared to my 100w ss marshall.
Some places we play at dont have a PA so I have to really crank the volume.

15w tube will blow your 100w ss Marshall out of the water in terms of volume, quite honestly. But you are correct in assuming that the Marshall will be louder than the micro terror, as we are comparing solid state power amps in this case.

And though orange may say the micro is approved for small venues...I'd personally not do it unless it were micd up. Especially if you have an animal for a drummer and a larger band. For that matter you might be well off with an ad5 if you can find one.

[Jondog]

It'll struggle with a loud drummer.

[indianDYsummer]

Watts is power, but not volume.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about this comment. If you had a 15w solid state amp and 15w tube amp output the same 15w waveform, they would be the same volume. The difference between tube amps and solid state is (as you mentioned) the saturation/compression. When tube power sections saturate and distort they actually become more efficient and output more than their rated clean power. The tiny terror actually probably outputs 20-25w when cranked dirty. Whereas solid state amps are kept below their clean output level because the resulting distortion is not pleasing, and can actually damage the amp and speakers.

That is generally the cause of "increased volume" from tube amps vs comparable solid state amps. Assuming all else is equal, watts are power and volume.


Just wanted to be clear!

[Jondog]

Watts is power, but not volume.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about this comment. If you had a 15w solid state amp and 15w tube amp output the same 15w waveform, they would be the same volume. The difference between tube amps and solid state is (as you mentioned) the saturation/compression. When tube power sections saturate and distort they actually become more efficient and output more than their rated clean power. The tiny terror actually probably outputs 20-25w when cranked dirty. Whereas solid state amps are kept below their clean output level because the resulting distortion is not pleasing, and can actually damage the amp and speakers.

That is generally the cause of "increased volume" from tube amps vs comparable solid state amps. Assuming all else is equal, watts are power and volume.


Just wanted to be clear!

From what I've been told, and I'm not an electrical engineer so I'm not saying I'm right,Watts is power, not volume which is measured in dB. To get the full wattage out of a solid state amp you have to crank it, which may cause clipping and sound like junk. Not so on a tube amp. You can get full wattage sooner,

[misterfolkertsma]

What kind of cab are you going to be playing through?

[Randy Bass]

Thanks for replies and the info.
I'm on a tight budget but I really want to get the tiny terror. I wanted to make sure it was loud enough to carry over my drummer before I bought it and 15w seemed low compared to my 100w ss marshall.
Some places we play at dont have a PA so I have to really crank the volume.

I would consider the Tiny Terror to be barely loud enough for the average rock drummer/full band. It will depend on the efficiency and number of speakers you are using. A 2x12 cab with Vintage 30s would be ideal for gigging with a Tiny Terror, as it would be a very efficient (loud) cab without having to lug around a 4x12. It also depends how clean you like your sound to be. The Tiny Terror runs out of clean volume very quickly.

I will say that volume comparisons to your (unspecified) solid-state M*rshall can be a bit confusing/inconsistent. Most of the time, the average entry-level 100-watt-rated (at 4 ohms) solid-state head is paired with a cheap 8-ohm 4x12 cab. This will make it seem "quiet" for a 100 watter since it is only putting out somewhere around 50-75 watts at 8 ohms through speakers that are likely to be quite inefficient. However, the same amp through a 4-ohm 4x12 cab loaded with Vintage 30s would sound substantially louder. I have a Valvestate VS102R 2x12 combo with decent/average stock speakers, for example, that is MUCH louder than my Tiny Terror combo.

More details about your current amp/cab setup would be helpful to make comparisons to the Tiny Terror in terms of volume. Oranges do tend to sound a bit quieter than a comparable M*rshall of the same rated power since the average (modern) M*rshall is voiced with much more emphasis on treble and noticeably less low/midrange output.

[jason41224]

mmm, i don't know. i play with a tiny terror every other sunday and love it. mic'd, but we don't have any monitors, so i have to get stage volume loud enough to compete with the drummer for my own sake (and i'm pretty far away from my amp), and i can hear myself just fine. our drummer's no slouch, either. not animal on mountain dew though.

[a.hun]

Watts is power, but not volume.

Hmm.. I'm not sure about this comment. If you had a 15w solid state amp and 15w tube amp output the same 15w waveform, they would be the same volume. The difference between tube amps and solid state is (as you mentioned) the saturation/compression. When tube power sections saturate and distort they actually become more efficient and output more than their rated clean power. The tiny terror actually probably outputs 20-25w when cranked dirty. Whereas solid state amps are kept below their clean output level because the resulting distortion is not pleasing, and can actually damage the amp and speakers.

That is generally the cause of "increased volume" from tube amps vs comparable solid state amps. Assuming all else is equal, watts are power and volume.


Just wanted to be clear!

You are clear, but it isn't quite that simple!

'Valve watts' sounding louder than 'solid state watts' (which they do!) isn't just down to saturation / compression / overdrive characteristics. Solid state amps run clean actually don't put out quite the same waveforms as valve amps run clean do. And very importantly because of the output transformers of valve amps the interaction with the loudspeaker isn't the same either. In fact the way a speaker and valve output stage (incl. the OT) interact is such that you can effectively think of the speaker an integral part of the amps circuit. Doubly so when there is some sort of amp <--> speaker feedback system such as an HF presence or LF resonance control. But not so with transformerless s.s. amps!

When I first took my brand new early Peavey 30 into my mates studio for recording he was pretty sceptical about the amp - until he heard it. Then his comment was "even clean you can hear it has valves in it!", and it is true. Clean s.s. amps and clean valve amps don't actually sound the same, and though when clean the apparent volume differences will be smaller they are still there and valve ones will still (typically) sound louder at the same actual wattage!
1st and 2nd posts here:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=11764" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course the differences when you get into distortion territory are way more obvious.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... stcount=14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

15w tube will blow your 100w ss Marshall out of the water in terms of volume...

Actually depends on the 100W s.s. Marshall. Some, due to superb design, components and build standards were very nearly as loud as their then current all valve equivalents!
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpo ... stcount=23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fact is though botfly, in real terms the TT will probably sound a bit louder than the MT when both are kept clean. When the TT is into roaring overdrive than realistically you'd need a decent 40 - 50W s.s amp to keep up with it through identical speakers. That is the sort of difference we are talking about here.


Andy.


Andy.

[botfly]

What kind of cab are you going to be playing through?

I will be playing through a Marshall 8412 4x 12 cab

Also I got to play the MT with my band had to turn it to full volume and all i got was squealing.
Gonna take it back and give the TT a whirl.
Thanks for all the help I appreciate it.

[indianDYsummer]

Andy and Jondog:

I still don't think anything I've said is incorrect. The notion that power "is not" volume is ridiculous, because it is. Volume comes from nowhere else other than power, but it is limited by the efficiency of other parts of the amp. The difference in volume between most amps is (as Andy went into more details about) due to underlying mechanisms in the amp design, components used, etc. Again, like Andy said, SS amps typically lack output transformers, but there are SS amps in the world that DO (like some vintage Acoustics). Speaker interaction/efficiency has a lot to do with it too.

But, saying that 15w (tube) output will give you more than 15w (SS) output is misleading. You'll also notice I tried to stress "all things otherwise being equal." Practically speaking, all things are not equal. I also did not say the waveforms are identical, because they're not, but from a strictly power standpoint, you don't get any more volume from 15w of tube output than you do from 15w of SS output. If all else is equal. The notion the tube power itself is louder is false. Again, it's the mechanisms behind the amp design and characteristics when pushed beyond it's rated capabilities that makes the difference.

Volume may not be measured in watts, but it is still a form of energy delivery. dB (as related to sound) is just a unit made up to represent/measure sound power as a reference or ratio. Maybe I'm just not satisfied with telling people the tube amps are louder at the same power than SS amps, since it is not really what's going on.

[Randy Bass]

A brand new Orange may not necessarily be the best choice for your budget. I paid the same price for my used Randall Titan 200-watt solid-state head that a Micro Terror would cost new in the U.S., so your budget can certainly get you lots of power (and volume!) if you need it. By the way, the Titan through its' matching V30-loaded 4x12 cab is loud enough to rupture your scrotum (which is a totally legitimate scientific metric for measuring volume). It actually sounds pretty good for 80's rock/metal and modern chuggery. I'm saving it for when I start a Whitesnake cover band.

I think your 8412 cab is 8 ohms mono and may have come from the factory with Celestion G12L-35s or similar. If that's the case, I would consider it to be pretty decent for the money, though not necessarily the most efficient cab around. You would actually hear yourself better on stage if you modified the back panel of the cab to make it semi-open backed or rear-ported. It would disperse the sound in a much wider pattern/area. That's one reason that combos can sound louder than a comparable head + cab setup (depending on where you are standing).

If your primary objective is to obtain the distinctive Orange tone, I'd be looking for a used Dual Terror. At 30 watts, it will be loud enough for the vast majority of band situations and it certainly won't disappoint in terms of tone.