tech 21 oxford

[bcole]

Does anyone out there have any experience with the Tech 21 Oxford Orange amp emulation pedal? Just wondering about how it sounds.

[a.hun]

Haven't tried that one. (I've no real need for it!)

Did a quick forum search and Teddy (Le Chat Noir) had ordered one a while back, but I can't see any more comments on it since...

I did get the (Ampeg style) VT bass model recently and I'm very impressed with it. The more recent version has a switchable speaker emulator which has a pretty big effect on the treble. I'd certainly try to grab one with that button rather than the original version without.

Oddly the switch seems to work back to front from what I'd expect. Speaker emulators normally (amongst other things) reduce the treble, but in fact - on the VT bass anyway - it works the other way with a nice treble roll-off when you switch it out. Useful for taming excess high frequencies / fizzy distortions etc, though there are good sounds to be had both ways.

Well worth checking out I'd say. All Tech21 stuff I've used has been very good indeed.


Andy.

[Le Chat Noir]

Did a quick forum search and Teddy (Le Chat Noir) had ordered one a while back, but I can't see any more comments on it since...

The shop I got it from sent me the wrong pedal and I returned it for a refund so I never actually got to try it! I've tried a couple of Tech 21's other 'amp in a box' pedals though and they're pretty good for what they are. The Mesa one sounded pretty convincing to me direct to computer or my PA on its own, but suffered the same fate as all emulators I've tried when played next to a real amp or in a band situation - lacking in depth, warmth and not three dimensional.

I guess it all depends what application you have for it and what you expect it to be capable of... there is no way a few solid state components in a stompbox will ever in any way equal a real all-tube amp. I'd say these are good as a budget home recording device for when you can't crank a real amp, as a quiet practice device, and as a backup to keep in a box in case of catastrophic amp failure at a show, but they certainly do not replace a real amp. For the price of them you could actually pick up a small valve amp like an Epi VJ and get a much truer tone.

I'd say the only time I'd recommend these as a direct replacement for a real amp would be in the case of bassists playing large venues where the bass is only DIed with no cab mics, i.e. your bass rig becomes a heavy and glorified stage monitor - in that situation at least they'd give your DIed bass sound an 'amp-like' feel instead of a 'direct to desk' feel.

[danbond]

Tons of bands we play with use the Tech 21 Sansamp for the bass. I think it sounds way better than just DI'ing the bass and offers overdrive sounds as well.

I don't know about the amp simulater boxes - I guess you could use them for direct recording, but generally speaking, Amplitube and other similar programs offer far more flexibility and power than a stompbox amp simulator. For effects (delay in particular) nothing seems to beat a pedal, but I'd be wary of buying these amp sim pedals just for recording.

[irish_admiral]

I've got one of the bass sansamp DIs. It's a great tool, and think every bassist should have one stashed away.

In terms of amp models, it depends what you're getting. I think Teddy hit the nail on the head when he said if you run it next to the real thing, a modeller doesn't sound like it, but some of the better ones are getting a heck of a lot closer these days.

I've got a Line6 HD500 and a friend as the Fractal Audio AxeFX. They don't sound exactly like the things they are modelling, but some of the models do sound pretty darn close, and sound good enough in their own right if you spend a bit of time setting up the patches.

On my unit, I like in particular the Vox AC30, Divided by 13 and Plexi models. There are some other useful sounds in there too for Fender Bassman & Blackfaces, and Hiwatt DR models. There's also the usual filth you get from the Mesa models, but essentially, everything sounds good enough to gig with out front, and although it's a slightly different feeling as you don't have an amp behind you, I play with IEMs these days so it makes little difference to me.

For the sake of not carrying 40kg of amp, a string of pedals, and working out which cable / battery is bust during soundcheck, i'm quite happy to tuck the HD500 over one shoulder, my Tele over the other, and i'm good to go. When your back is slowly giving up the ghost, it's an attractive proposition. And it does sound better than you might think.

This from someone who owns a nice Orange & Matamp...

[Le Chat Noir]

I think there are a few demoes of the Tech 21 range on Youtube you can check out - basically the good demoes (like that Burgerman dude) really give you an accurate idea of how these things sound direct to PA or computer. What they don't tell you is how it feels to play them.

It's not just that they don't sound quite like the real thing tonally - I don't really care about authentic tone in terms of nailing 'that' Marshall sound or whatever - the problem for me is it's more like listening to a recording of a guitar than playing a real amp... you almost feel a bit 'disconnected' if you know what I mean. I think modellers are getting better and better at emulating the basic tones of a real amp, but are still a long way from whatever magic it is that makes that tangible bond between guitarist and amp... hard to describe, it's something you'll know if you've ever used a modelling amp live though.

For what it's worth, I was quite prepared to include modelling gear in my rig if it sounded good and worked well - I was thinking of running the Mesa and Fender Tweed models though an A/B looper pedal to channel switch between the two and run that to the board as a kind of extra amp to blend with my real amp signal miced up, but in the end as soon as my real amp was in the mix the Tech 21 pedals seemed totally underwhelming and not a patch on my AD30. They call them the 'character' range but for me they are really lacking in character next to a good amp!

[irish_admiral]

Yeah, I think my first caveat is that a fair bit of processing power needs to be dedicated to making the amps sound good and realistic, and the cheap things don't really do that.

The biggest difference is not having noise on stage if you go direct to desk. If you have an amp on stage, then a lot of that 'feel' you were talking about returns. As mentioned, I play with in-ears these days, and that's a whole different culture change in itself. I don't play a pedalboard any differently to my real amp, and the response in terms of the attack, sustain and decay of the notes is fairly similar.

I guess you're trying to put your finger on the mojo you like in the amps rather than a model. For me, it's a bit of a non-issue, if you were to set them up the same way (ie, with a cab on stage). Very much a case for me of saying the times are moving a bit, and i've got no objection to learning some new tricks to keep up...

I agree they don't sound as good (basically) as my Orange... however, the other point is that no one else notices a tonal difference aside from those people with enough cash to own a nice amp, and the inclination to listen that way with a critical ear for tone, rather than just the music. Now I know i'm the only person with the money & inclination to spend as such where I play, so if no one else notices and I don't mind...

... and that's going to be the case with the majority of weekend warriors or people who do covers gigs & wedding bands.

[Le Chat Noir]

I guess you're trying to put your finger on the mojo you like in the amps rather than a model. For me, it's a bit of a non-issue, if you were to set them up the same way (ie, with a cab on stage).

I'm not so sure it's a simple case of stage volume making the amp seem better - when I was pitting the amp-in-a-box pedals vs a real amp, I was running the pedals through a good, powerful, neutral powered monitor pumping out comparable decibel levels to my 'real' amp. They just seemed to lack the 'life' and 'warmth' of the real amp and basically sounded like a recording of a guitar being played through a PA. Perhaps this could be fixed by adding in EQs etc but personally I didn't push it that far as the cost and weight of carrying a powered monitor and rack to gigs negated the simplicity of the pedal-in-a-box concept and one good core sound was more important to me than lots of different ones.

Also as a gigging musician who does a lot of shows in less-than-wonderful joints I am aware that a rig like this would put me completely at the mercy of sound guys... at least with a real amp I know the worst case scenario is I can just crank my amp and people will hear it! Of course if you always have your own sound guy or only play at home/one location then it's a different kettle of fish.

[irish_admiral]

Yeah, I guess it's an unfair comparison there, because the modellers i've used have been fairly high end, rather than an "amp in a box" style thing like the Tech21 ones. My point was simply that you can get some good sounds out of the better ones these days, and the convenience is a big factor if it's ok.

For a covers band who'll usually set themselves up, there's no problem with they soundman, as they are the soundmen!

Equally, in your shoes, if you've set your patches up ok, you just plug in and tell him to push up the fader. I can tweak a little from my board if I need to as there are large friendly dials with "gain", "treble", "mid" and "bass" etc marked on them. You're no more at risk than you'd be if you set up an amp in a room with bad acoustics in it.

If you want to retain control, then just bring a small PA speaker to plug it into and away you go. I'm not saying you need to do that, but simply that you can, if you want to get around the lack of volume control. The board I use has got a handful of core good tones in it, so i'm pretty happy using them given my situation. It took a little while to set up, but once there, it's a good sound to work with. I'm pretty sure the Tech21 boxes won't come close to it in terms of tone.

[Le Chat Noir]

It would help if the OP told us how he was planning to use the pedal!

[Brown Brown]

New here on this forum but a lover of Orange amps and good tone.

I have been using an Oxford and I think it sounds great. I am using it as a surrogate preamp into a tube amp output section for playing, not recording. I have tried it directly into a power amp, into the inputs of other amps, and into the effects loop return to bypass the preamp coloration (which is my favorite and current method). Albeit I'm using the output section of a Marshall Vintage Modern w/ its wonderful KT-66s and a pair of old old greenbacks but bypassing the preamp of that lets the Oxford take over and put its stamp on the sound. What is sweet is that it's got a PPIMV so the master volume and reverb is still operational, along w/ the presence control. It works so well this way that it sounds like a real tube amp instead of a sim. I have tried sims in the past and gotten rid of them and I won't even go near any digital ones (which this is not). Awesome tones and flexibility unknown in most amp preamp sections.

Granted, it is not possible or at least not likely to match the exact sound of an actual Orange amp or for that matter any others but it is so close that it's close enough in this case, especially in a mix of other instruments, etc. But then not all amps of the same make and model sound exactly the same, just like guitars, but they will have the family resemblance. I believe Tech 21 has upped their game with the latest round of character pedals. The addition of the speaker emulation defeat switch was a great idea. I can get good sounds either way with a treble tweak.

Btw, somebody mentioned "processor" power. There are no processors in this unit. It's pure analog. They may have been referring to a computer sound card though.

Anyway, for those interested in the Oxford, it is well worth a try. Don't be dissuaded until you've tried one with your own gear. Fact is, I was so impressed with mine that I just got the Leeds model too (if you like the Who it really nails that sound). Love that Hiwatt tone too. Go for it.

Playing mostly an old Les Paul Deluxe, a Strat, and a G&L. I spend the most time on the Deluxe with the Oxford and Leeds. Cheers!

[a.hun]

Hi Brown Brown. Welcome to the forum.

You make a couple of very good points there.

Firstly yes the Tech 21 Sansamp stuff is purely analogue not digital, so not to be directly compared to digitally processed stuff like the Line6 etc etc modellers. (Not that I am personally allergic to those either, but still...)

You are playing your Oxford and Leeds through a proper valve power stage. So do I usually putting my 'VT Bass' through my Hiwatt head, and that (to my mind) makes a lot of difference to the feel.

Perhaps surprisingly this is not mainly because of the valves, but because they have an output transformer. The importance of an OT is so often forgotten but honestly the OT is the heart and soul of any great valve amp. Because of their highly complex inductive electro-magnetic nature they have their own very special sonic characteristics. The way they react to varying signals is much less easy to model than the way an amps (valve or solid state) circuits react. I like good solid state amps and have no illusions at all that the biggest difference is a lack of valves. The real main difference is actually the lack of an OT! Some very expensive solid state amps do in fact have have output transformers. Guess what - they react much more like valve amps do!
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So yeah I totally understand where Teddy is coming from. The dynamics of a good valve amp (especially its power section!) aren't there - no argument there. But if the sounds are close enough to the real thing then these can be very useful tools.

As far as the older Sansamp Bass DI is concerned these are used a lot both live and for recording. There they are a totally professional solution. One thing to bear in mind is that for recording especially bass is almost invariably compressed, so slightly reduced dynamics aren't a problem. The main reason they work so well is not so much the 'feel' but the sound ie the amp like EQ and clean through overdrive characteristics.

But yeah IMO Tech21 Sansamp gear has always made really useful tools for both guitar and bass, and I'm well impressed with what I have tried from the new Character series. Sure, not for everyone, but def. worth at least trying if you think it might work for you.


Andy.

[Le Chat Noir]

Lots of good points as always, Andy, especially about the importance of a proper power amp with beefy trannies.

I have tried sims in the past and gotten rid of them and I won't even go near any digital ones (which this is not).

I think the analogue vs digital thing is a red herring here. Just because something is all-analogue doesn't mean it's suddenly guaranteed to be better than anything digital. I've read a lot of comments about Tech 21 pedals where people have said that because it's a 'pure' all-analogue pedal, that gives it the edge over digital-based modelling, which to me is just an emotional response rather than an objective one. It's still just a selection of components in a box, there is no inherent magic to 'analogue'. Plenty of crappy little solid state amps are all-analogue, doesn't mean they sound better than a Vetta II, AxeFX II etc!

I'm in no way championing modellers, but I do think a lot of people talk trash about 'digital' without any real basis for their objection. I bet that if you used a high end modelling unit like the Eleven Rack or something in the same way as the Tech 21 pedal, i.e. into the loop of a good valve amp, then they'd be just as good sounding and certainly way more versatile - and surely versatility is one of the trump cards of any emulation over a traditional amp? If you really love the Orange tone, for example, why not sell your Marshall and Tech 21 and get a real Orange? I know you also use the Leeds, but to my mind one nailed-down, totally true tone is better than two 'nearly-there' ones.

[irish_admiral]

Yeah, i've run my Line6 board using just the "pre" setting (ie. no modelling of the power section of an amp & a cab) straight into my Matamp clean, and it's sounded great. There is something fun going on in there.

However, just as you say, it's a flexibility & convenience thing. The sound of the board - without running through either of my amps - doesn't sound as good as above, but it is good enough for most of my applications, so call me lazy but i'm content to do that as it reduces my setup to about 60 seconds, and means I can carry my whole rig in a gigbag & shoulder bag! Much easier to keep it all close to you in the bar after playing, so people can't swipe a guitar or pedals whilst you're carrying the amp back to your car...

[a.hun]

I think the analogue vs digital thing is a red herring here. Just because something is all-analogue doesn't mean it's suddenly guaranteed to be better than anything digital.

Yeah, I've got to agree with that. It is all down to good design (or not!), whichever technology is being used. I own and use both analogue and digital amp emulators myself. If it works it works.

I was just making the distinction because it isn't always clear to some. One is just clever pure solid state (analogue) circuit design, the other is computer processor based emulation of whatever is being modelled - very different technologies basically trying to come up with the same results.

As I say the Sansamp technology has been around a good while now, as was the UK 'equivalent' from Award Session. ('Was' because I see sadly they aren't making their amps and preamps now.) They were also very good though and my JD10 preamp is still one of the most useful bits of kit I've ever used. I bought it long before the first POD digital modeller came out, and it remains very good indeed.

The digital stuff is improving fast and to dismiss it simply because it is digital is fast becoming kinda daft. Throw enough clever design and processing power at the problem and the differences from actual valve gear are soon going to be vanishingly small. The latest generation digital stuff is more than useful. But the real thing is still best!


Andy.