Rocker 30 vs rockerverb 50 mkii...gain structure???

[drtone2015]

I own a r30. I love the tone of the dirty channel, except it can be a tad loose. If i turn the gain up to 6.5 it starts to compress, and get fuzzy and loose. I need the gain to be at about 7 for what i play, but it's just too loose and mushy at that point. My ideal tightness is that of a marshall jcm 800 but i dont like the harshness and lack of gain on marshalls. I would love to stay with orange because they sound great. SO my question is how does the rv50 mkii compare to the r30 in terms of looseness. I can't find any info anywhere comparing the tightness of the gain of these two amps. I run a gibson LP trad with WCR american steeles. and I hate using pedals! or even boosts. Im a purist i guess. But any help would be great! Unfortunately I can't find a rv50 mkii to compare...

[MaxProphet]

rockerverb will be tighter because it's not cathode biased. it also has a loose/tight dampening switch (not sure if it's on mkii still)

[drtone2015]

rockerverb will be tighter because it's not cathode biased. it also has a loose/tight dampening switch (not sure if it's on mkii still)

Interesting, i've never heard of cathode biasing causing an amp to get loose. could you explain? The mkii doesnt have the dampening switch i believe, but i could be wrong

[jason41224]

with the gain around 2'oclock on the R30 (where i'm guessing 7 on the dial means...but i never refer to it that way), i get plenty of tightness. but then again, i don't play metal. if you do, you'll definitely want to upgrade to the 50 for the reasons you mentioned (plus a few more). but since you say your ideal amp is a JCM800 with less treble, i think you should try to work with what you got. start with your EQ, what settings are you using? with the bass on max, it gets pretty boomy/loose. i usually back it off a bit (and set the mids on full, and then treble to taste).

[drtone2015]

with the gain around 2'oclock on the R30 (where i'm guessing 7 on the dial means...but i never refer to it that way), i get plenty of tightness. but then again, i don't play metal. if you do, you'll definitely want to upgrade to the 50 for the reasons you mentioned (plus a few more). but since you say your ideal amp is a JCM800 with less treble, i think you should try to work with what you got. start with your EQ, what settings are you using? with the bass on max, it gets pretty boomy/loose. i usually back it off a bit (and set the mids on full, and then treble to taste).

My ideal amp is actually a rocker 30 with the tightness of a marshall! I think 800's have too little gain. Yes gain around 2:00 is what i use. I don't play metal either, punk rock and classic metal at the heaviest. My eq is set pretty balanced. Treble and mids at noon, and bass at about 10:30 (or 4). I wonder if it is the tubes or cab that is bringing on the looseness. My tubes are all JJ, and my cab is a mesa recto 2x12. SO is the rv50 just a tighter version of a r30 but with more gain?

[jason41224]

^not quite. they're actually two completely different sounding amps...the name is very misleading. the RV has much, much more gain, and sounds really fizzy compared to the Rocker. it typically sounds pretty compressed too, whereas i'm sure you've found out the R30 (and the JCM800) is a really dynamic, touch sensitive amp. i don't think an RV sounds much like an 800, but the R30 does quite a bit--except with more gain, less treble

but like i said, i don't find my R30 to be loose at all. my setup is actually very much like yours too. i'm running all JJs, and it sounds just fine to me. my cab is an avatar 212 with 2V30s (just like the recto). if i could have a guess, i would say that you should experiment with your preamp tubes.

[TESLA_EL34]

you can tighten up the rocker30 a bit with winged C's in the poweramp and EH's and tungsols in the preamp.

i think 2x SED EL34's (=C=) and V1 TungSol V2 TungSol V3 EH is the best combination i've came across yet.
i really think the TS 12ax7's are really smooth and they have less gain.

the EH 6CA7's are also tighter but you need to turn the amp more up because they have less compression.

i don't think the rocker30 is loose at all. you may think it's too smooth for what you play.
for metal i would go for EH's in the preamp.

[drtone2015]

^not quite. they're actually two completely different sounding amps...the name is very misleading. the RV has much, much more gain, and sounds really fizzy compared to the Rocker. it typically sounds pretty compressed too, whereas i'm sure you've found out the R30 (and the JCM800) is a really dynamic, touch sensitive amp. i don't think an RV sounds much like an 800, but the R30 does quite a bit--except with more gain, less treble

but like i said, i don't find my R30 to be loose at all. my setup is actually very much like yours too. i'm running all JJs, and it sounds just fine to me. my cab is an avatar 212 with 2V30s (just like the recto). if i could have a guess, i would say that you should experiment with your preamp tubes.

maybe it feels loose because i am coming from marshalls and mesas which are really tight amps. it's all relative i guess. so why is the rv50 so popular if it is very compressed, fizzy, and lacks dynamics and touch sensitivity? doesn't seem like those are qualities people would want in an amp. (but i guess i just described a mesa dual rec which were very popular haha)

I gotta see what i can do to tighten up the rocker, it really is the best amp ive ever heard. It's 90% there as far as tone in my head. It is amazing that a six knobbed 30 watt amp could destroy every amp ive ever owned or played as far as tone. And ive owned a lot of good amps...

[jason41224]

^well, they do get less compressed as you crank up, which is almost the opposite of the R30. As for its fizziness, it's just a matter of taste. often this is referred to as vintage vs. modern sounding--the RV and TH30 are considered "modern" (fizzy) wheras most all of Orange's other amps sound pretty "vintage"...fuzzy, not like a fuzztone, but like a 50's tube amp being cranked. except the R30 seems to be somewhere inbetween the two.

plus, as a R30 owner, i loved the RV (both mk1 and 2). not enough to ditch my R30, but i found that it was extremely versatile. it's just a different animal when it comes to its core tone.

[MaxProphet]

Interesting, i've never heard of cathode biasing causing an amp to get loose. could you explain? The mkii doesnt have the dampening switch i believe, but i could be wrong

i can't offer a technical explanation but it has to with the fact cathode biasing is less efficient/harder on the tubes ie. more sag

that and the absence of negatory feedback, crossunder notches and flux capacitors, or something

if the rocker is "90% there" i would suggest experimenting with different speakers/cabs

[sizzlingbadger]

the RV has much, much more gain, and sounds really fizzy compared to the Rocker. it typically sounds pretty compressed too, whereas i'm sure you've found out the R30 (and the JCM800) is a really dynamic, touch sensitive amp.

This doesn't describe my RV MKII at all....

Its not fizzy has plenty of touch dynamics and can go from clean to "just about" metal on the dirty channel with everything in between you could wish for.

[Les Paul Lover]

I don't think that described my RV50 MKI either. The rockerverb amps are incredibly dynamics and touch responsive - i can only assume that a person making those comments wouldn't hav had much time with them.

Their dirty channels are very different though, the rockerverbs are a lot smoother whereas the rocker 30 is a lot more ballsy and in your face, especially with humbuckers.

I can't really talk about the gain structure of the R30, but the RV50 can do all sorts of gain levels from light shimmer to all out syrupy creamy overdrive, and anything in between. It does blues, classic rock, hard rock, metal, it's all in the amp - and the clean channel is amazing too. At loud volumes, it breaks up wonderfully, and has am awesome - though deafening crunch at full tilt.

The reverb is a bit crazy, but i love it just as it is - that's a matter of taste! Hope this helps!


Edit: rereading your comment Jason, it's true that with the dirty channel volume on 1, the dynamics of the rockerverb aren't well represented. It still sounds better than most practice amps then, but does get incredible as you open it up!

[baytamusic]

Try some P90s and some different preamp tubes. It'll get you there. The Rocker sounds better w/ P90s than humbuckers IMO. Even regular single coils might work.

I put NOS GE in V1 and V2 and an EHX in the phase inverter. The amp is much "tighter" than stock. In all reality, it's just clearer. There's less mud in the overdrive and it's more focussed and pleasing to the ear.

[evansexcellent]

the RV has much, much more gain, and sounds really fizzy compared to the Rocker. it typically sounds pretty compressed too, whereas i'm sure you've found out the R30 (and the JCM800) is a really dynamic, touch sensitive amp.

This doesn't describe my RV MKII at all....

Its not fizzy has plenty of touch dynamics and can go from clean to "just about" metal on the dirty channel with everything in between you could wish for.

I completely agree with this. Rk50mkII is very dynamic and you can really get just about anything you want out of it.

[blackcloud45]

I own and have gigged extensively both the Rocker 30C and the RV50IC as well as RV50IH / PPC412.

The Rocker 30 is indeed cleaner and purer sounding... until you hit the last gain stage. At that point it does become fizzy. There really is no in between on the gain dial. The amp sounds great, but it's 'either / or' when it comes to the last gain stage. Not enough or too much.

The RV50 does have more useable gain on tap and it transitions nicely between all gain stages. Both amps are quite dynamic and touch sensitive. The RV50 is more compressed. Neither amp strikes me as tight. Of course that kind of goes hand in hand w/ the touch sensitivity I just mentioned (in my mind anyway).

Everyone gushes about the Rocker 30 and it is a good amp. Ultimately, my experience has proven the RV50 to be a more versatile / useable amp. For me anyway... I'm sure the Rocker 30 is fine for the guys that really love them. It really comes down to what you hear in your head. I bought the Rocker 30 first and it just great. Then I got an RV50 and I really don't play the Rocker anymore.