SP212 is Great

[corganb]

I just received a black SP212 and Terror Bass 500. This set up has already exceeded my expectations. I have played bass for about 15 years, recently owning an Ampeg SVT and 4-10 Cabinet rig. This small isobaric surpasses my old rig. With the dial not even at noon it rattles the windows of my house. Can't wait to try this at a show. The bass response seems so much more powerful than the 4-10 Ampeg cab. I get plenty of high end and mid range when I adjust the EQ. I think any negative press this has been getting is strictly due to the high price and size. I wan't sure what to expect, but I can say now with confidence that the SP212 is a great cab. It works well at low levels too and gets a good tube crunch when the gain is high. These days most clubs use the DI out for subwoofers, etc. so I don't think I will miss the "air pushing" that I read some users miss. You will not be disappointed!

[chinese fork tie]

oh man, when i saw yr username, i thought billy corgan signed up an account to post here and defend himself against accusations of crazy in the 'it might get loud' thread. given his behavior over the last decade or so, i wouldn't be surprised if that DID happen.

what bass are you playing through the TB?

[corganb]

lol - I could see that happening. No connection here, just my name. Testing with a Hofner beatle bass. Thought I'd share the reaction.

[a.hun]

Nice one corganb. Glad you are getting great sounds. Orange have always known a thing or two about making cabs, and their new isobaric ones seem a great idea. Daresay that others will come up with them too now that Orange have.

Was tempted by the SP212 myself but eventually went for a lightweight 2x12 from Tecamp instead. (http://www.tec-amp.com/index.php?id=103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) Also very happy with my choice.


Andy.

[Y0UNGBL00D]

so wait, it pushes LESS air? thought pushing more air in smaller real estate was the point of the SP cabs?

[Le Chat Noir]

Double post.

[Le Chat Noir]

so wait, it pushes LESS air? thought pushing more air in smaller real estate was the point of the SP cabs?

My understanding of the principle is that two drivers arranged is an isobaric configuration require a smaller box to push the same low end as one driver in a larger box, thus reducing the dimensions of the box. As far as I can glean from reading up on isobarics, there should be no benefits in terms of pushing more air or more bass over a larger box with one speaker given equal materials, construction techniques and speaker type. Thus a 2x12 isobaric sohuld push less air than a conventional 2x12 but be physically smaller than even an equivalent 1x12.

Here's a quote from Bill Fitzmaurice over on TalkBass that maybe puts it better:

Isobarics were reasonably popular in the hi-fi DIY realm when driver technology did make 10 cubic foot and larger cabs a necessity to reach down low. Using two drivers in an isobaric alignment does halve the required net cabinet volume, but with exactly the same response, sensitivity and output as one driver. Going from a ten cubic foot to a five cubic foot box did have it's benefits, especially in home hi-fi vis-a-vis WAF. Doing so with pro-sound in general, and electric bass in particular, never caught on, since what pros wanted was maximum output for the dollar spent, and box size was secondary.

Fast forward 20 years: Driver technology advances have rendered isobarics even less attractive, since what required a 10 cubic foot box then only takes 2 cubic feet today.

Bill is a highly respected cab builder and designer who is kind of like TalkBass' equivalent of our Andy here - he is always the guy who steps in to give clear, accurate advice and cut through the bull. There's even a 4-page thread on there in homage to his wisdom (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/offic ... ost9939599)! I feel inclined to trust him on this one!

Having said that, don't get me wrong, I'd still love to try one and they look super cute. Sometimes something comes along that confounds the science and just works. What has put me off is that I'm not desperate to get the smallest rig possible and for the money you can buy some top notch large cabs for less than even the SP210.

[Randy Bass]

I think the way Orange would sell it is that for the same given box size, the isobaric dual driver configuration produces more low end than a single driver. That's the idea anyways.

[Le Chat Noir]

I think the way Orange would sell it is that for the same given box size, the isobaric dual driver configuration produces more low end than a single driver. That's the idea anyways.

This is true, but conversely a single speaker in a slightly larger enclosure will produce the same bass and cost way less than the SP line of cabs, so I guess it comes down to whether the individual is willing to pay a high premium for a slight reduction in cab size!

I doubt we'll see any other major manufacturers making isobarics any time soon as I'm not sure there is a huge market for tiny cabs at a price point which you can buy some quality larger cabs - given the choice I reckon most bassists will carry a slightly larger cab (or indeed a much larger cab) which will sound bigger and push extra air.

[Randy Bass]

Yeah, I think it was mainly a good match for the Terror Bass to come out with the Smart Power line. I do like big cabs though as long as they have wheels. I'm looking for a 2x15 refrigerator cab for my V-4B.

[a.hun]

so wait, it pushes LESS air? thought pushing more air in smaller real estate was the point of the SP cabs?

My understanding of the principle is that two drivers arranged is an isobaric configuration require a smaller box to push the same low end as one driver in a larger box, thus reducing the dimensions of the box. As far as I can glean from reading up on isobarics, there should be no benefits in terms of pushing more air or more bass over a larger box with one speaker given equal materials, construction techniques and speaker type. Thus a 2x12 isobaric sohuld push less air than a conventional 2x12 but be physically smaller than even an equivalent 1x12.

Well Teddy I don't see that it should be physically smaller than a standard 1x12, (with just a single speaker inside rather than two, one behind the other), but otherwise that's about right. You'll get a similar bass response to a single speaker cab of double the physical volume. Or to look at it the other way, a much greater bass response than other cabs of comparable size.

How much air they move isn't the big point with isobarics - increased bass response is. They will generally be a bit less efficient in overall SPL terms than conventional 2x12 cabs with the same drivers. But how much air they actually move depends on more than just the front cone surface area. The 'throw' or back to front 'swept volume' of the cone(s) is a factor too, so long throw speakers can physically move more air than equivalent sized shorter throw speakers and will be more efficient = 'louder'.
http://barefacedbass.com/technical-info ... cement.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know exactly what the (twinned) drivers in the Orange SP cabs are or how great their maximum cone excursion is. I've also never seen any efficiency / sensitivity figures quoted. Realistically though I'd expect them to be a good couple of dB down on the best conventional 2x12 designs. Doesn't ultimately matter much though, for a couple of reasons I'll give below.

Here's a quote from Bill Fitzmaurice over on TalkBass that maybe puts it better:

Isobarics were reasonably popular in the hi-fi DIY realm when driver technology did make 10 cubic foot and larger cabs a necessity to reach down low. Using two drivers in an isobaric alignment does halve the required net cabinet volume, but with exactly the same response, sensitivity and output as one driver. Going from a ten cubic foot to a five cubic foot box did have it's benefits, especially in home hi-fi vis-a-vis WAF. Doing so with pro-sound in general, and electric bass in particular, never caught on, since what pros wanted was maximum output for the dollar spent, and box size was secondary.

Fast forward 20 years: Driver technology advances have rendered isobarics even less attractive, since what required a 10 cubic foot box then only takes 2 cubic feet today.

Bill is a highly respected cab builder and designer who is kind of like TalkBass' equivalent of our Andy here - he is always the guy who steps in to give clear, accurate advice and cut through the bull.... I feel inclined to trust him on this one!

If you mean this particular Andy, thanks very much! (If not, er, please excuse this particular rant... !!!)

Fair enough Bill Fitzmaurice is an expert on cab and speaker design, and undoubtedly knows way more on the technical side than I do. But like everyone he will have his own favourite ideas and design preferences (as do we all!), and I get the feeling he is maybe missing a couple of small but real points which explain why Orange are doing these cabs, probably doing well very with them, and will IMO likely be joined by others...

1. Having the two drivers means you can also get double the electrical power handling from a compact cab. Since Orange have brought out the 500W TB (and are possibly still planning the 1kW version) that degree of power handling is important. I'd agree that is a slightly back to front way to look at it, but even so it is true.

(The closely related point 1.5 is that many other bass amp manufacturers are also bringing out light, compact and efficient but extremely POWERFUL bass amplifiers, so are also going to be looking at ways of making smaller speakers with 'bigger' performance which can safely handle their amps output. Which is exactly why I think there will be more isobaric bass cabs on the market before too long. I said much the same a few years ago about class D amps. Saying it too now about isobaric bass cabs, largely as a direct result I suppose! )

2: I don't think that pro bass players these days always simply want max output for the dollar spent. And these days box size is often not secondary at all but very important. I think many pro (and semi pro!) bass players are happy to pay some pretty serious money for top quality sounds. One big trend in high end bass gear is very much towards smaller lighter more portable amps and cabs. Conventional speaker design has moved on in leaps and bounds and these days fairly small bass cabs can pack the same sort of punch as much larger ones used to be needed for. With the high tech drivers and cab designs these days you can get incredible sounds out of smaller cabinets. I love that and have huge respect for designers (presumably including Bill Fitzmaurice) who make that happen.

Because isobarics (even with lightweight Neodymium magnets) are always going to be heavier for the size of cab, and not particularly efficient, I think perhaps Bill Fitzmaurice sees them as a backwards step in design terms - something I can totally understand a speaker designer disliking. But that is maybe forgetting / ignoring these things:

A. Sheer out and out cab efficiency for bass rigs matters somewhat less now than even just a couple of years ago since ultra portable amps can whack out so much more sheer power. And I do mean just the last couple of years, since all these ultralight ultra powerful class D designs bass amps (like the Orange TB) and others have started to hit the market. That is a real change in the market!

B. It isn't always just weight but compactness too which may be important. Basically if you can get your bass rig in a compact car (or even on public transport) and it sounds every bit as good / big / room filling as the big old one you used to need a bigger estate car or van plus helping hands to shift, well as long as it is still light enough for you to move yourself that is exactly what a fair number of people these days are after. The cars engine isn't going to care if it weighs a couple of kilos more than some other similar sized boxes, as long as you can stuff it in there and get it out again yourself.

C. Since these class D amps themselves are so powerful and especially so efficient at turning electricity from their inputs into speaker output wattage (up to about 90% real world, much better than even the best class AB solid state designs and WAY higher than any valve based designs which turn most of the electricity they use into heat!) you can now realistically afford to sacrifice a little on the speaker sensitivity front and still be 'quids in'.

Also I suspect that the actual effective real world efficiency losses with isobarics will be less than any 'on paper' cab sensitivity / efficiency figures might suggest. Reason being that since they are so much more efficient at putting out the bass frequencies - which normally eat up lots of amp power - the amps will need to put out less actual power in the bass and so have more left over to push out at higher frequencies. Remember that speaker efficiency ratings are usually made at a specific frequency, (eg 1kHz for almost all official guitar speaker ratings). I suspect those sensitivity figures won't look very flattering for isobaric cabs, but that trying to relate them directly to the sensitivity ratings of other cabs wouldn't be 100% realistic. In other words the actual real world efficiency losses probably won't be as great as you might expect.

However since most people aren't going to realise that I'd doubt the sensitivity ratings will ever be fanfared as loudly as with other cabs. IMO it doesn't matter though. As long as the cabs are compact, great sounding and loud enough (as the Orange ones certainly appear to be ) I'm sure there will be a market. It may be a niche market, but I'm quite sure it is a real one, and as such I honestly doubt that Oranges lead will be totally ignored by others. Might be wrong on that - Orange have always been known for bucking market trends and going their own way - but I strongly suspect we'll see some fairly similar designs from others.

For myself, yes I thought seriously about grabbing an SP212. Ultimately I went for the Tecamp cab. Tecamp (formerly Tech Soundsystems) is a high end German company doing some really clever and tremendous sounding bass cabs which are also incredibly lightweight. The 600W rated Tecamp M212 cab which I went for weighs 20kg = 44 lbs, almost exactly the same as my 100W Hiwatt head, or a couple of kilos less than my Orange 120 head. I live 3 floors up, will be hitting 50 too damn soon, and that linked with great sound performance and decent efficiency rather than ultimate compactness was my own highest priority. If you want to see just how light their cabs are compared to most click on a couple of the other cabs from that link. I'm also planning on grabbing their compact and ultra light 300W XS115 (=12kg!) for example. Even their 2400W rated 8x10 is fractionally under double the weight of my 2x12. Compare that to an Ampeg or Orange 8x10 and you'll see what I mean...

Still the SP212 isn't all that heavy either. rhopper here measured his at about 45 lbs or 20.4 kg which would still not be too exceptional for a decent quality standard design 1x12 bass cab! Adding Neodymium magnet speakers only has about half the weight penalty of using conventional ceramic magnets, so is definitely something which recent changes in driver technology has made more practical.

I wonder what Bill Fitzmaurice makes of things like the tiny PMC DB1 (= 'Diddy Box'! ) studio monitor speakers I'm currently considering with their transmission line technology. That is another way of getting a 'surprising healthy' dollop of bass from a smaller box. I suspect that like the BBC and many many top studios worldwide he'd perhaps approve of that approach - for audio monitor speakers anyway. But transmission line cabs wouldn't be great for bass cabs as this approach does make for a very heavy speaker with far more internal woodwork than standard boxes need.

Anyway though I didn't go for it myself I think there are strong arguments for making and using compact isobaric bass cabs. All speaker designs involve some compromises, but I reckon the ones involved there seem acceptable enough. I'm quite sure Orange will do fine with them!


Andy.

[Borderline Productions]

Thanks Andy and Teddy – I feel so much smarter now.

I have a 212 bass cab with Neo speakers. It is not terribly heavy, but if the box was half the size at about the same weight that would be so convenient.

I agree that with the amount of wattage put out by most bass amps, efficiency is not a real issue.

Do they have a punchy sound like a good 410 cab?

[Le Chat Noir]

Firstly, you are the Andy I meant and I always enjoy your well considered, rational posts!

Well Teddy I don't see that it should be physically smaller than a standard 1x12

The sole technical benefit of loading 2 speakers in an isobaric configuration is Vas is halved. Vd and SPL remain the same.

Of course you also get the side benefit of doubling the power handling, but this has no effect on the sound and could be achieved by simply choosing a single speaker cabinet with a more powerful driver!

Isobaric cab designs were used in the 70s when speakers had limited motor power compared to today's offerings, which meant that isobarics were an attractive option for cab builders who saw a benefit in halving the size of the huge cabs they were having to build to get full low end response from their drivers.

However, the benefits are minimal in the case of a modern, efficient 10" bass driver loaded in a suitable enclosure that is already quite small. Indeed, it is in all probability not physically possible to reduce the size of such a cab by half and still have space for two 10" drivers and plenum between them! That's why the Orange SP210 isn't actually much smaller than most conventional 1x10s, and it makes me wonder if there are any real technical benefits to this design.

All things being equal (which of course they never are in the real world!), an SP210 will not 'move more air' or have an 'increased bass response' compared to one identical 10" driver mounted in a similarly constructed, correctly-sized enclosure which has been built to satisfy Thiele Small parameters.

Of course it may sound bigger than some other manufacturer's 1x10s - but drivers, materials, construction, wood etc all play a big part in that. Also of course some company's compact cabs aren't technically large enough to get the most out of the speaker they chose to mount in it, resulting in reduced bass response.

[Randy Bass]

...The sole technical benefit of loading 2 speakers in an isobaric configuration is Vas is halved. Vd and SPL remain the same...

I'd prefer to find a box with no Vd whatsoever .