The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

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Neiloler
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by Neiloler » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:09 pm

Bandeapart wrote:so now I can have an amp that runs EL34, EL84, and KT77's all at the same time? If this is true, I'm going to poop myself.
Well get your Depends on, because that's exactly what it means. :)

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by Neiloler » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:13 pm

Wendigo wrote:Complete bollocks. One more thing to go boobs up and not at all necessary. Was there something wrong with the Orange amps as they were? Why do companies always have to fix something that isn't broken? Has that thinking ever panned out in the past, for any product? :roll:
So don't use it. :P It seems like it's a worthwhile deal if it works well and gives you some extra options of tubes, not to mention some more cash in your pocket if you don't have to pay for bench fees.

It may not be quite there at this point, having a bias-computer in every amp, but wouldn't it be nice if it got to the point where it was feasible in every amp?

Purists would still hate it I guess. But they'd be sitting there, in front of their Pentium-i64 equipped computer complaining about it, missing the point of innovation and going out on a limb.

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by misterMagoo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:56 pm

Neiloler wrote:Purists would still hate it I guess. But they'd be sitting there, in front of their Pentium-i64 equipped computer complaining about it, missing the point of innovation and going out on a limb.
Not entirely. After all, the internet is just a series of tubes.
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by TheOrangeJuicer » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:59 pm

Wendigo wrote:Complete bollocks. One more thing to go boobs up and not at all necessary. Was there something wrong with the Orange amps as they were? Why do companies always have to fix something that isn't broken? Has that thinking ever panned out in the past, for any product? :roll:
My thoughts as well. It is at least optional, so the buyer can blame themselves.

One thing that can be fun for some real geeks is to change the tube types continually to sample the various "flavors" of tubes. So it is likely meant as an enticement to those who would find the traditional Orange amps "too basic". They want to be able to swap out whatever tube they have in there and for those guys, it'll mean another sale for Orange.

Two things it will not do is increase amp quality/reliability or improve your playing skills. Your choice if you want it in there or not at least, so no harm, no foul to those that want their TV100 to stay a TV100.
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by fiveightandten » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:28 pm

Neiloler wrote: It may not be quite there at this point, having a bias-computer in every amp, but wouldn't it be nice if it got to the point where it was feasible in every amp?
Maybe to some, but not to others. I personally can't stand products that are designed to take the end user out of the equation for things that were previously determined by the end user. I'm of the opinion that it makes people increasingly more ignorant as to how things work.

As an example. My car automatically turns the air conditioning on whenever I put the climate control on a setting that opens up the top panel vents under the windshield. I find it incredibly irritating that the engineers took away my choice to have the AC on or off in these instances. I had to rip apart the dash, and find the microswitch and relay that were responsible for this and disable the "feature". I'm not a complete moron, I can decide for myself if I need the AC on to defog my windshield or if I just want some heat blowing through the car from those vents. To top it off, in the end, I paid for the R&D for them to design this feature in the car, and the parts required to implement it. IMO, it's completely useless, yet things like this find their way into products more and more.

I prefer to set the bias on my amps how I like it...or leave it to the ears of someone that's experienced in doing it. If we take the human factor out of this and leave it to a computer to figure out based on some pre-determined parameters, we've now gotten into a situation where the common end-used (and sooner or later even the repair technician too) doesn't have to understand how the bias is adjusted, how it works, or what affects changing it will have on the tone. I don't see that as a positive thing, personally.

As I see more and more things like this making their way into products I use, i'll be just as opposed to making designs more complicated simply to take the human factor out of the equation. I'm not arguing with you, just providing a counterpoint.
Neiloler wrote: Purists would still hate it I guess. But they'd be sitting there, in front of their Pentium-i64 equipped computer complaining about it, missing the point of innovation and going out on a limb.
That analogy doesn't really work. You're referring to improving a product by making it perform its task faster and more efficiently. That's a pretty clear cut example of progress, which is different than the gray area introduced by a "feature" like the one we're talking about.

Again, not arguing. Just providing a counterpoint, as to me the opposing opinion is a little more concrete than resisting change simply for the sake of being a purist. Personally, I have pretty clear cut reasons why I don't like the idea of designs like this and it's not because I don't like change.

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Neiloler
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by Neiloler » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:05 pm

I guess I can see those points, good points too Nick. I take it back, at least my snobby attitude about it. Removing things from the end user can be a bit silly in some cases. No one really needs to understand how their pentium is working (it would blow your mind though ;)), but removing pieces of the puzzle as to how tubes work is a bit more detrimental.

Set me straight. :)

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by jontheid » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:55 pm

How can it tell if you have a 6v6, EL34 or KT77 plugged in? They all have the same socket, no?
And very different max plate diisipations. 6V6 is 14W, EL34 is 25W and proper KT77 is 32W.
How does it know? The mind boggles.

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by Neiloler » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:14 am

jontheid wrote:How can it tell if you have a 6v6, EL34 or KT77 plugged in? They all have the same socket, no?
And very different max plate diisipations. 6V6 is 14W, EL34 is 25W and proper KT77 is 32W.
How does it know? The mind boggles.
Yeah, that's true, though you could check on the resistance of the plate or something like that. It's doable, it's not dissimilar in some aspects to cathode biasing, though I would need to study a bit more to really say one way or the other (that's just a theory/thought in the dark).

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by sidvicious » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:21 am

this system is unnecessary and will fail.

who in the world, other than the world's richest man with all the time he can have would want to mix and match tubes in this fashion?

mesa tried an amp in the 80's that would run 2 6l6's, or 2 el34's, or all four combined.

no one cared. i had one; sold it.

i want to play guitar, not play engineer.

orange - do what you do best and make great amps. do not tread in territories that do not exist. keep all the present tubesters coming and forget this kind of crap. it's been tried, it isn't new and it won't make orange any money.
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by fiveightandten » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:40 pm

Neiloler wrote:I guess I can see those points, good points too Nick. I take it back, at least my snobby attitude about it. Removing things from the end user can be a bit silly in some cases. No one really needs to understand how their pentium is working (it would blow your mind though ;)), but removing pieces of the puzzle as to how tubes work is a bit more detrimental.

Set me straight. :)
Two ways of looking at the same thing. If all issues were cut and dry, the world would be a boring place. Though I do have pretty strong opinions about some stuff like this.

I just see so many products and features added to products these days that make me say, "why?". People used to have a decent understanding of their material possessions, which is a large part of the world around them. So many people these days don't know how to change a tire on their car, or check the oil.

If we're going to design amps that bias themselves, why not design amps that don't need tone controls either?...they'll have a built in signal generator and frequency analyzer that will sent out sine waves over a range of frequencies, analyze what reverberates and what's soaked up, and automatically adjust the volume and EQ for you. Let's have guitars that tune themselves too, so you don't have to be bothered by it anymore. Where does it end? I'm exaggerating a bit, but the sad part is, it's not *that* outlandish.

I think automobiles are the worst examples of useless engineering. Cars are stuffed full of electronic assist systems that cut power and steering input when needed, and brake for us automatically. It's a miracle anyone knows how to control an automobile anymore. Crash avoidance systems? Are you kidding me? A system that's designed to compensate for you not paying attention to the road? Would you not avoid the accident because you were fiddling with one of the other 8000 gadgets they put in the car?

Maybe i'm old fashioned. But things like this make me glad I got all the amps I wanted before amps turn into computers.

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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by bassdrop » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:13 pm

I think it is interesting from a technological standpoint. Certainly the MI industry is full of examples of the many ways one can use a microprocessor. Most of us can't afford analog delays. When was the last time you saw somebody whip out a tuning fork or strobe tuner on a gig? With that said, I do appreciate the tactile simplicity of analogue gear, especially considering the fact that I spend most of my days configuring servers, routers, switches, and the like.

Like Neil and Nick, I see both sides of this thing. I'm interested to see it in action, but not so interested that I feel like I need to run out and buy one.

I will concede one point to sidvicious: While Orange has done a great job of resurrecting itself and producing an amazing stable of amps and cabs, they are starting to branch out into some categories that are simply, not part of that core focus- tube and solid state amps and cabs. Even though they have as strong a footing in the market now as they did in the 70's, they're previous market forays should at least give them pause for caution. They over-extended themselves back then into the P.A. market and other areas without adequate R&D or dealer interest. I'm mainly referring to the OPC here, which also made its debut at NAMM 2011, but the DIVO is in that camp.

Who knows? We could be completely wrong and both of these products could be Orange's "iPad".
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by TheOrangeJuicer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:49 pm

fiveightandten wrote: ...If we're going to design amps that bias themselves, why not design amps that don't need tone controls either?...they'll have a built in signal generator and frequency analyzer that will sent out sine waves over a range of frequencies, analyze what reverberates and what's soaked up, and automatically adjust the volume and EQ for you. Let's have guitars that tune themselves too, so you don't have to be bothered by it anymore. Where does it end? I'm exaggerating a bit, but the sad part is, it's not *that* outlandish.


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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by TheOrangeJuicer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:28 pm

jontheid wrote:How can it tell if you have a 6v6, EL34 or KT77 plugged in? They all have the same socket, no?
And very different max plate diisipations. 6V6 is 14W, EL34 is 25W and proper KT77 is 32W.
How does it know? The mind boggles.
That's what the unit does at start-up, it runs a series of measurements and then sets-up the amps bias and perhaps other voltage sources based on the results. It is part of the reason it has the start-up function check-list or whatever they call it. It has to do that to even operate but it also has to continually monitor it on the fly to "optimize" voltage conditions to limit current runaway at any point. Its start-up function also can detect a dead tube before it goes into operation, so it has the ability to trouble-shoot for that right before use, which can save time and possibly money if a catastrophic tube failure were to occur. There are several types of these auto-bias or self adjusting circuits being used in other amplifiers. This is one brand that has some features that Orange liked. Probably had more features and was more customizable and more easily implemented for them; the fact that they can implement it in a stand alone version must have played a large role in that. It can be used to add a quasi-standby feature to odd, vintage amps that didn't come with it and possibly even to substitute some odd output tube with a more commonly available, current production type. It can add a "half power" feature to amps (maybe only those using 4 output tubes). So it has lots of cool features for many amps. It doesn't replace fuses or a road tech. It could also fail on its own accord and create the equivalent of the BSOD for guitar amps if it were configured internally and was not by-passable.

Here's the poop;
http://tubesync.co.uk/tubesync-bias-engine-v4-382.htm
Last edited by TheOrangeJuicer on Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The new DIVO tube bias technology system explained...

Post by Randy Bass » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:25 pm

Well, that additional information finally sheds some focused light on it. It sounds awesome...er...wait...terrible :D !
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