Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

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Sethery
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Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Sethery » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Hello,

My current set-up consists of a Rockerverb 50 head and a ppc-212 cab. I'm putting together a live band for my solo instrumental project, and at practice literally had my gain channel maxed out and clean almost maxed to keep up with my other guitarist and loud drummer. Although i like the idea of cooking my power tubes that much, i was wondering if adding another 2x12 cab would help me be heard more??

Would adding another 2x12 actually increase my volume? Or would it just limit the speakers breaking up?
Love, Seth.
Orange PPC-212
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myboss57
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by myboss57 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:30 pm

As far as I understand, adding another 2x12 will certainly increase the perceived volume - so you will probably sound louder and be able to better hear yourself. You'll also be pushing out more air, which is also good for loudness. I'm sure there's a formula, and someone who is much more experienced than I can provide you some more insight. But I had a 2x12 for a bit, and when I changed to the 4x12 I noticed an increase in my overall volume due to the extra air flow.
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BrianFantana
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by BrianFantana » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:36 pm

Sethery wrote:
Would adding another 2x12 actually increase my volume? Or would it just limit the speakers breaking up?
Yes and yes.
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ohara
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Ohara » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:39 am

If you had a 50 watt amp maxed to keep up, even with a 2x12 cab you should have been plenty loud. I would check your tubes to see if they are dying on you, which would explain the decrease in volume. You could run a cable out of your fx loop into a channel on the pa and pump your sound through the pa which will give you all the volume you need to be heard. This saves you the money for a second cab, also the hassle of lugging 2 seperate cabs.
I think I would check the tubes first though cause you should have been plenty loud.
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myboss57
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by myboss57 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:43 am

Ohara wrote:If you had a 50 watt amp maxed to keep up, even with a 2x12 cab you should have been plenty loud. I would check your tubes to see if they are dying on you, which would explain the decrease in volume. You could run a cable out of your fx loop into a channel on the pa and pump your sound through the pa which will give you all the volume you need to be heard. This saves you the money for a second cab, also the hassle of lugging 2 seperate cabs.
I think I would check the tubes first though cause you should have been plenty loud.
That's a great point!
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Randy Bass
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Randy Bass » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:27 am

You should get a couple more dBs from doubling the quantity of speakers (assuming they are all the same type), but I agree that your RV50 should be plenty loud enough even through the 2x12.
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Sethery
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Sethery » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:42 am

So, are you guys saying that it is rediculous for me to have to crank my amp's volume all the way up to be heard? Yeah, it gets decently loud, but it's just loud enough... Maybe it is the power tubes, but i'm not sure, any clear way to tell if it is tube related?
Love, Seth.
Orange PPC-212
Mesa Boogie Tremoverb dual rectifier
Rockerverb50H
PRS Custom 22 ten-top
Ibanez "law suit" Les Paul
Ibanez Jet King
Lots of Pedals (Gonkulator Ring Modulator is my favorite)
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/27795172@N05/

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indianDYsummer
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by indianDYsummer » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:52 am

Retube it? Not sure there's much else to do other than that. When was the last time it was retubed, and how often do you crank it?
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Nork » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:57 am

i went bug-eyed a bit when i read you'd maxed out your channels on a 50W amp to hear yourself...'cause that's pretty freakin' loud, i think. i'm with ken...maybe just check everything over. i know you can tap on the tubes to find out if they've gone microphonic, but otherwise, i have no clue how to tell if they're toast. how old are they? you'd be burning through'em quicker if you're running flat out all the time as opposed to being "quiet".
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Sethery
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Sethery » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:33 am

I have had the amp for 2.5 years, but i have rarely played it maxed out. I have mainly used it in my home studio and jamming around when i have the time. But i have not been in a band that played out much yet with it, so it has not had extensive heavy "loud" use. I actually just had the amp fixed at orange headquarters.. Some type of cap blew on the amp, and it was less than 2 years old. Come to find out, the company they buy their capacitors from mis-labeled a batch of them, so every rockerverb that was made at a certain point needed to get fixed at a certain time. Anyway, my point is that the amp techs said nothing about the tubes being bad, and that was a few months ago. But i guess that could be all it takes for power tubes to go sour..

If i do need new tubes, any suggestions on 6V6 types to put in it?
Love, Seth.
Orange PPC-212
Mesa Boogie Tremoverb dual rectifier
Rockerverb50H
PRS Custom 22 ten-top
Ibanez "law suit" Les Paul
Ibanez Jet King
Lots of Pedals (Gonkulator Ring Modulator is my favorite)
http://www.myspace.com/sethsoloproject
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27795172@N05/

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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by irish_admiral » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:45 am

The JJ 6V6 valves are probably the best of the current production ones and rival some of the NOS for tone. Fairly cheap too - won't go wrong with them.

I think what the others are saying is correct. A healthy 50 watt valve amp running at full bore should be hurting your ears a bit if you're standing anywhere near it. You should have PLENTY of volume. I'd suggest you may have a monitoring problem rather than not having enough stage volume. In-ear monitors may be the way to go, to isolate you from the drummer!

Alternately, for practices, get the others to crank down a bit. I appreciate drummers don't have a volume dial, but you can dampen the resonance of their skins etc.
Joe

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wrath
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by wrath » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:45 am

What is the other guy using? RV50 isn't the loudest 50watter out there but it should be plenty loud even through a 2x12. I'm using my RV50 with a PPC412 and don't have any problems hearing myself over two other guitarists (fender deluxe and ashdown), bassist and a loud drummer. I do need to turn up a bit more than my friend's fender (that's one really loud motherf***er) but i never go above 4 on the gain channel and above 3 on the clean channel in practice. Try EQ-ing your amps a bit...maybe you sound quieter cuz of the "darkness" RV possesses...you should resolve this by pushing your mids and highs a bit and lowering bass. If the other guy is cranking a 100 watt amps through a 4x12 he'll need to turn down, and you'll need to get another 4x12.
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by Orphin » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:10 am

myboss57 wrote:But I had a 2x12 for a bit, and when I changed to the 4x12 I noticed an increase in my overall volume due to the extra air flow.
Me too. The 412 will sound a lot better than two 212 IMO.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by a.hun » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:07 am

Couple of main points really.

Firstly yes, adding a second 2x12 (or swapping to a 4x12) will get you a shade extra actual volume. Something approaching 2 dB which in isolation is far from dramatic, but if you are already 'just about' loud enough should do enough to be worthwhile in terms of bringing your guitar forward in the live mix.

Secondly, the Orange cabs (the closed back ones anyway) are very directional. Almost laser like compared to some others. Which means that unless the speakers are pointing right at you you don't get the full impact. (Unless you can hear with your knees that is.) Chances are high that people out in the audience are getting a MUCH fuller idea of what you are playing than you yourself get on stage. Can be quite deceptive!

Considered adding an open back 2x12 eg the PPC212OB? That would give a much broader spread of sound on stage and let you and the rest of the band hear your guitar way better.

PS. I agree that a 50W on full through a good 2x12 should be pretty freakin' loud already. A bit of nuclear disarmament treaty negotiations with the rest of the band might also be a good option. :wink:
As was the tone tweaking suggestion from wrath...
wrath wrote:Try EQ-ing your amps a bit...maybe you sound quieter cuz of the "darkness" RV possesses...you should resolve this by pushing your mids and highs a bit and lowering bass.
Thats a good place to start. Amp settings which sound perfect to you in isolation often need a lot of EQ'ing in a band mix, either live or when recording. As wrath says generally foccusing more on the mids (and treble), cutting the bass. With Orange amps in particular you can often afford to lose a fair bit of the lower frequencies which'll help you really punch through. It is how you sound in the mix that is important in a band situation!
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Re: Adding another 2x12 cab add more volume???? Need some help

Post by sidvicious » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:06 pm

the consensus of the forum is that 50w should be plenty and i agree. i have a tv50 and several other 50w amps. i can't imagine being in a situation where i couldn't be heard. the orange 2x12 cab is a great guitar cab.

if you retube it, i would recommend going for some high quality nos tubes. mullards, telefunkens, etc. you won't regret it and those tubes will last a lifetime.
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