Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

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CD9266
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by CD9266 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:56 pm

Whenever you pick out something and get it, let us know how it goes for you. You know we'll want to know. :lol:
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neonrust
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by neonrust » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:04 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote:Think I may even go for the DD-3 - it's got less options, but as I said, I only want it for this one specific function... and it seems the DD-3 will do it OK!
It's not stereo Teddy. :wink: :wink: ....but MIGHT work for a short delay to one amp? Any delay would in this case.

Just get a Fender amp with some BIG reverb. :shock: :lol:
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Le Chat Noir
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Le Chat Noir » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:09 pm

neonrust wrote:
Le Chat Noir wrote:Think I may even go for the DD-3 - it's got less options, but as I said, I only want it for this one specific function... and it seems the DD-3 will do it OK!
It's not stereo Teddy. :wink: :wink: ....but MIGHT work for a short delay to one amp? Any delay would in this case.

Just get a Fender amp with some BIG reverb. :shock: :lol:
It's not stereo but it has a 'direct out' as well as effect out - and as I basically want one totally unaffected signal and one with a small, one-note delay, it should do the job :)

I'd still love a nice Fender too of course :P Hmmm... perhaps I should try QUAD amping? ;)
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

neonrust
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by neonrust » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:12 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote:
It's not stereo but it has a 'direct out' as well as effect out - and as I basically want one totally unaffected signal and one with a small, one-note delay, it should do the job :)

I'd still love a nice Fender too of course :P Hmmm... perhaps I should try QUAD amping? ;)

Your right.....stupid me. It should work then. Cheers and let us know how it goes.

MMMMMM........Quad amping!!!!!Nice!
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kittenface
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by kittenface » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:25 pm

here in the USA, DM-3's don't go for all that much - the DM-2's are priced thru the roof!

plus, you'll never lose any $$ on it (if you go to sell it) as they hold their value

chances are, once you play it, you'll NEVER let it go

they're that good
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Le Chat Noir
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Le Chat Noir » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:36 pm

As much as I'd like a DM 2 or 3, the prices here are ridiculous (over 200 GBP - about 300 dollars!)... plus, I don't really think the sound difference will make it any better for me. The main difference between analogue and digital delays is in the sound of the repeats, and as I'm not actually using any repeats... well... ;)
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

blacklight_uk
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by blacklight_uk » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:17 pm

Ahhh the Haas doubler effect! I use it in my mixes all the time. Basically anywhere up to about 30-40ms will create a wider stereo image due to localisation properties of the ears. Anything above that and we perceive two separate sounds. Just make sure that your sound guy pans the two amps to avoid phase problems. If you keep them mono you'll lose a good chunk of bass and lower midrange. Also be careful because the stereo image will shift, as we perceive the sound to be coming from the non-delayed side, and therefore it sounds "louder" than the delayed side. Your sound guy will be able to make up for this on the desk, but if you're going to have songs where you aren't using the delay then it'll mean that the level jumps when you turn it off, so maybe either inform the sound guy or try and solve the problem yourself. You should find that turning the non delayed amp down by around 3-6dB will do the trick, depending on how long you set the delay time.
Josh

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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by irish_admiral » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:52 pm

Right, stop talking bollocks Josh, and tell us what you just said.
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blacklight_uk
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by blacklight_uk » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:58 pm

irish_admiral wrote:Right, stop talking bollocks Josh, and tell us what you just said.
Haha! :mrgreen: Sorry sorry sorry!

OK. This is easier for me to explain if you think of it in terms of mixing. Say I've got two tracks of guitar, both recorded at the same time with two different mics. Although there will be variations in frequency content because of the different mics, both sources will be very similar. If you want a wide stereo image you pan them hard left and right, but because they're similar our ears sum them together so it sounds like they're both coming from the centre.

However if you put a short delay on one side, anywhere between about 6 and 30ms you'll start to hear the stereo image "widen". It makes the guitars sound bigger and wider, but it can leave a hole in the middle of the stereo image if you go too far.

The problem I was describing is called the Precedence Effect. Basically we know how to tell where sounds are coming from through spatial clues. These are derived from time and frequency information in what we are hearing (e.g. a sound coming from the far left would be slightly duller and arrive at the left ear before the right).
The problem is that if you delay one side of the signal then your brain will hear the undelayed signal slightly before the other. It then tells you that the sound is coming from that direction.

Just for an example, say you delayed the right side by 20ms. You would hear the sound as coming from the left, because that's the first thing your brain hears. It would also sound louder in the left side because of the precedence effect. Our brains get confused and choose to ignore the delayed sound, so we perceive it as coming from the left.

The way to deal with this is to balance the levels of both sides until you hear them equally. You still get a wider stereo image but you hear both sides at equal perceived volume, even though one will actually be louder than the other on the gain meter.

The other problem comes with comb filtering (phase). Because the waveforms are now out of phase with each other you start getting peaks and troughs in the frequency content, creating a weird, hollow sound that lacks bass solidity. However if you pan them hard left and right you don't notice it.

Well...this is all amazingly irrelevant! It's definitely worth knowing about when using this kind of delay though, helps avoid the problems you can come up against.
Josh

Le Chat Noir
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Le Chat Noir » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:11 am

I wouldn't ask an engineer to pan hard left and right live though, for obvious reasons ;)

I'm hoping that as I will be using two very different sounding amps, the sound should blend nicely without too many phase problems, but we'll see! I will let you all know how it goes, as soon as I actually have a delay pedal!

It's always really frustrating, when I decide to get something I find hardly any on Ebay currently - then if I look at past listings, loads ended recently for great prices ;)
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

Bensen
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Bensen » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:50 am

Jepp, the DD3 works for your application. If you plug into the direct output it's only wet on the other output, like you want to. Another pedal that works the same way is the Ibanez DL10, I bought one for 25 Euros last weak on ebay. Really like the sound of it, pretty warm repeats and if you max the delay time they fade out in a cool lofi way. Hard to describe but I really dig it

Le Chat Noir
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Le Chat Noir » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:27 am

Sadly there are no DL-10s on UK Ebay at all, and none in the completed listings either! I will keep an eye out though, thank you :)
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

blacklight_uk
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by blacklight_uk » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote:I wouldn't ask an engineer to pan hard left and right live though, for obvious reasons ;)
Yeah, that'd look/sound weird actually :P I think even a few clicks either side should get rid of the problem (if there is a problem). In any case, hope it works out, sounds like a cool setup :D
Josh

Le Chat Noir
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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by Le Chat Noir » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:57 pm

Cheers Josh, will let you know how it goes!

Sometimes it's good to work through the theory on these things... but in the end, my guiding principle is to just try it and judge with my own ears :) There have been plenty of occasions both live and in the studio when I've tried things which fly in the face of convention and that's often when something magical happens!
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

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Re: Recommend me a stereo delay ;)

Post by blacklight_uk » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:16 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote:Cheers Josh, will let you know how it goes!

Sometimes it's good to work through the theory on these things... but in the end, my guiding principle is to just try it and judge with my own ears :) There have been plenty of occasions both live and in the studio when I've tried things which fly in the face of convention and that's often when something magical happens!
Yeah that's golden rule number one definitely! It's easy to forget that knowing the theory should aid rather than dictate what we do on the creative side. Definitely keep us updated, I'm thinking of going back to a stereo rig so it'd be cool to hear how it sounds and maybe try it myself.

Hope you and yours have a great Christmas!
Josh

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