Orange amps - actual output

[stevo2112]

The "loudness" thread got me thinking about the actual output of some orange amps. for instance: the OR80 runs on 2 EL34s - is it physically possible that it can be rated at 80 watts (clean)? Same goes for the AD140- with 4 EL34s.

Anyone know what's up with these names- are they just not as conservatively rated as other orange amps (e.g. the 4xEL34 RV100)?

Sorry if this has been covered recently - I don't recall having seen it mentioned and the search function is down!

[Wendigo]

I'm not sure what 2 ELs can put out...I think they are rated for a maximum plate dissipation of 25 watts each, which I guess would mean that they will be capable of putting out a max of 50 watts between them, but probably less because after biasing you are usually running them at (for me) about 70% of the max dissipation. So maybe around 40-45 watts max in reality? Like I say, I'm not sure because i don't think that the max plate dissipation equals actual output. For example, a marshall jcm 800 with two el34s is rated at 50 watts, and the rv50 with 4 6v6gts (9 watts max each=36watts max) is rated at 50w. I just know that the RV "50" must be a hell of a lot more than 50 watts at times, even for a tube amp. More like peak 100W I would estimate. I'm go ahead and guess that the rated wattage is something to do with percieved loudness after the power stage, coming for the speaker. Then again i could be wrong and I have just wasted 5 minutes.


I've just done some calculations and I think I might know how they are arriving at 50 watts for a marshall jcm800 combo for example.

I measured the plate voltage on mine at about 480 volts. The max plate disspiation of the el 34 is 25 watts. Ok normally when you set the bias of an amp you do it like this:
Take the plate voltage (480 volts) and divide the max plate dissipation (25w) by it.... you get 52ma. This is derived by ohms law (watts=voltage x current) This would be the maximum that the plate can handle in reality under load. You then take 70% of that current value (52ma x 70%=37ma) and then take 50% of it (52ma x 50%=26ma)...this is the safe range for your bias in ma. So in the end, you are running your tubes on about between 50% and 70% of the max plate dissipation which takes into consideration that the power can fluctuate higher during peak levels. Using this calculation you get less than the rated wattage of the amp. However if you dont consider the fact that the tube will be biased (of course) less than the absolute max the tube can handle (25watts), then you would have 52ma x 480v=25watts x 2 =50watts. In other words, it looks like they have simply takend the max rating of the tube and doubled it because there are two tubes. that would explain the rating of 100 watts for the rv100 with 4xel34 as well.
The RV 50 has 4 6v6gts though, rated at 9 watts each max dissipation...even if you took the max dissipation of 9 watts you only arrive at 36 watts...hmmm...in fact, in push pull operation (class AB like the rv 50 amp is) they are only rated at 14 watts per pair for a grand total of 28 watts max.....I really dont know where the rating of 50 watts is coming from. Time to get Ade himself in here to clear this up, and probably correct me.

[Taronja]

The "loudness" thread got me thinking about the actual output of some orange amps. for instance: the OR80 runs on 2 EL34s - is it physically possible that it can be rated at 80 watts (clean)? Same goes for the AD140- with 4 EL34s.

Anyone know what's up with these names- are they just not as conservatively rated as other orange amps (e.g. the 4xEL34 RV100)?

Sorry if this has been covered recently - I don't recall having seen it mentioned and the search function is down!

have you ever experienced how hot the tubes are in the old vintage OR's, wow, they are cooking and wear out twice as fast as most amps, the wood over the tubes has some pretty deep burn marks, those old amps push the tubes far over what they are capable of and i beleave the OR80 easly exceeds 80 watts, its freaking loud and has some awesome loud cleans, it moves some serious air, no kidding.

im so GASing for another one of those beast's

in fact, in push pull operation (class AB like the rv 50 amp is) they are only rated at 14 watts per pair for a grand total of 28 watts max.....I really dont know where the rating of 50 watts is coming from. Time to get Ade himself in here to clear this up, and probably correct me.

yeah i never really felt the RV50 had any knid of power compared to any other 50watt amp iv owned, this is just from hands on experience, im no tech by any means.


Jon

[bclaire]

Let's put it this way: my two old Marshall Superleads were 100 watt rated amps. On the bench with new tubes at the point of clipping, one was 135 watts and the other 147. An OR80 can easily put out 80 watts or more.

[Musicman20]

Interesting thread!

On the bass side of things, obviously the AD200b Mk3 is super loud compared to most 400-500W solid states (depending on the manufacturer).

You often get the boring talkbass rant of 'oh its only 180W, get another amp'.

Has any of these guys heard the AD200b into one 8 ohm 4x10?! Believe me, and I think Billy will agree, it is SERIOUSLY loud....and I like the fact you can get that really nice tube grind at much lower levels. If you have a fair bit of grind, that master volume stays quite low!

I tested it for the first time with two 8 ohm cabs a few months cab (as I dont often use both of them at once) and it was total overkill....in a good way. One of my guitarist said 'wow, that has some serious low end and dirt to it'; the other just looked sad because his guitar tone was so tragic compared to my bass tone. The drummer loved the fact the bass was so punchy in the mix and he could keep great time with me.

I ignore wattage now....Im pretty sure the AD200b Mk3 would keep up with those new lightweight Genz Benz Shuttle 900 watts amps...and sound a hell of a lot better.

Cheers

[nguideau]

Andy was just discussing this in the Technical forum on a thread about the TT (comparing it to a 2061x, and how different factors result in the amps having different ratings). It would be awesome if he could chime in.

[bassdrop]

The thread just referred to is a good place to start, including the links Andy posted:

http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38604

The plate dissipation of a single tube does not tell the whole story. For instance, the max plate dissipation of a 6550 is 35 watts, however the AD200B, running a quartet in Class A/B and fixed bias can achieve somewhere in the area of 185 watts (not the 140 that the plate dissipation would suggest). An Ampeg SVT can run 6- 6550's in Class A/B and achieve 300 watts. Fender put out a bass amp in the 70's called the 400PS that runs 6 6550's at a very high plate voltage and achieves 500 watts clean!

[wrath]

i think RV50's peak is around 97 watts.

[Orphin]

There are so many factors to make it impossible to compare watts to percieved volume that it's making me dizzy.
My tech told me that watts can be measured in three different scales, but unfortunately I have forgotten the names of these, but basically it can make an amp rated at 50 watts on one scale, read something else on the other.
Then when say OMEC design the Rockerverb 50 for an example, the amp probably doesn't put out exactly 50 watts clean. Say it would put out 46?? Fine, let's call it 50.

Then comes the question how much more you can push the amp over the headroom.. what speakers you use, how the amp is voiced etc. Not to mention that when doubling the watts, it will increase volume by 3dB.

The Loudness thread is just making it simple: What is the loudest amp you've experienced? Then it doesn't matter how many watts they put out..
What made me want to start that thread is that I've read so many times poeple saying that "Orange amps are so incredibly loud" and I'm asking myself: Loud compared to what!? A mouse fart?

[neonrust]

The perceived loudness of my RV100(even with kt88's) was nothing in comparison to any other 100+ watter I have own. I could dime it in my small home studio. Yes...it was loud, but not deafening by ANY means.

I think it PARTLY has to do with frequencies......Oranges being a darker amp brand and all.

[Wendigo]

Guys...regardless of how you think a tube can be maxed out in any sense, if you exceed the maximum plate dissipation you will red-plate the tube and shortly kill it, period. In reality there are real-world values for electrical components and within a small margin you will fry if you try. I want to know how orange is rating the rv50c for example when the max power rating for 4 6v6gts is a total of 36 watts peak....show me how that is 50 watts rms continuous and I will be happy. I'm not saying the amp is underpowered or something....it's more than loud enough for me, I'm just saying I dont understand where they come up with the 50 wats rms continuous.

[stevo2112]

It just seems like there's no way that my OR80s can be rated at 80 watts nominal if they're running on 2 el34s. If I understand correctly then, based on the average relationship between clean and cranked output, they're putting out ~120 watts dimed. 2xEL34? Seems impossible.

[Musicman20]

Certain amps, perhaps the modern Marshall tube amps, definitely sound more shrill and piercing to me....which is loud but rather annoying.

[Orphin]

I want to know how orange is rating the rv50c for example when the max power rating for 4 6v6gts is a total of 36 watts peak....show me how that is 50 watts rms continuous and I will be happy.

Are you sure that those numbers are correct? If they are it's even more strange that Fender would rate the Deluxe Reverb to 22 watts when a pair of 6V6 tubes only can dish out 18 watts?

[bassdrop]

The problem is that you are assuming that the RV50 runs the 6V6's at the rated plate voltage, however there are many circuits, most especially for 6V6, that run the tubes well above maximum plate voltage. The thread I was linking above linked to two other threads, but the main point I was trying to get across was a quote from John Philips on the gear page:

Exactly, and since power is proportional to the square of voltage, a roughly 25% increase in voltage gives a roughly 50% increase in power (1.25*1.25=1.56). (It's not quite as simple as that, but close.) The circuit is identical apart from the Deville having stacked filter caps, but both transformers are different.

This is talking about how a Deville and Deluxe can have the same tube complement and different power ratings. Keep in mind that the 6v6 is rated for 315 volts at the plate and many amps put upwards of 400 or more. So if the tube is rated at 9.8w (14w/70% plate dissipation at the rated plate voltage), you would need to know the RV50's actual plate voltage and square the increase above the rating to know what you are actually putting out per tube.