OT: American Idol

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xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx
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Post by xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx » Sun May 24, 2009 8:18 pm

MaxRossell wrote:Meh. Shows like this aren't even vaguely connected to music. They're just amateur circus for dull people.

I've watched a few episodes of the various British and American versions, and it isn't cringeworthy or anything, it's just like watching the shopping channel, boring and pointless.

Expecting to find good music on American Idol is like expecting to find a Rembrandt at a Wal-Mart. It doesn't make any sense.
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Post by airforce_brian » Sun May 24, 2009 10:26 pm

xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote:
airforce_brian wrote:
xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote: typical!? thats crazy talk. ive never heard ANYONE like bazan. ive heard hundreds of adam lamberts.

the most remembered singers are never the ones that sounded the best.
cash,dylan,elliot smith= not american idol material. no one will know who adam lambert is in 1 year, i guarantee it.
I wouldn't be so sure of yourself dude. Brian May and Roger Taylor of Queen are considering Adam Lambert as their new singer. The guy is talented and has a huge fanbase already because of the show. I guarantee he is going to do something.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/i ... -frontman/

When it comes down to it, I listen to all music and I think it's incredibly narrow minded to ignore something because of preconceived notions or stereotypes about it. I don't care if it's Pop, Rap, Rock, Folk or anything else, if it's good I will listen to it.
oh i totally agree. i take in and respect ALL genres of music. but music is art. adam lambert doesnt make art.

if i went in my room and painted a copy of a van gogh painting, even if it was very similar, i would still just be a copy cat. and so far all ive seen is adam lambert sing other peoples songs. which means NOTHING. he might sing good but if he cant write a good tune then hes not really that talented.

and ever since freddie passed, queen has and never will be the same . its idiotic to try to keep it going. they need to give it up already.
With that type of thinking, then I guess the video you posted of David Bazan singing a Leonard Cohen song would not be considered art either since he didn't write it. Just because American Idol singers sing cover songs on the show doesn't mean they aren't creative enough to write their own music. Adam Lambert does write his own music as well, they just don't sing it on American Idol.

My whole point with Queen is that they are accomplished, celebrated musicians, and they respect Adam Lambert enough as a vocalist to have him sing for their band. Whether or not you like queen in their current arrangement, it definitely says something about his singing.

I'm not going to post anything more about this because it's like beating a dead horse. I won't lose sleep at night because you don't like Adam Lambert.
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Post by MaxRossell » Mon May 25, 2009 8:00 am

airforce_brian wrote:With that type of thinking, then I guess the video you posted of David Bazan singing a Leonard Cohen song would not be considered art either since he didn't write it. Just because American Idol singers sing cover songs on the show doesn't mean they aren't creative enough to write their own music. Adam Lambert does write his own music as well, they just don't sing it on American Idol.

My whole point with Queen is that they are accomplished, celebrated musicians, and they respect Adam Lambert enough as a vocalist to have him sing for their band. Whether or not you like queen in their current arrangement, it definitely says something about his singing.

I'm not going to post anything more about this because it's like beating a dead horse. I won't lose sleep at night because you don't like Adam Lambert.
Just gotta mention a couple of things here.

As mentioned above, a copy of a piece of art doesn't have artistic merit just because the original did. Whether you give a toddler a bunch of poster paints and tell it to copy Géricault's Radeau de la Méduse, or find some peer-elected waxed mall-creature and tell him to whine along to the backing track of a Cohen number, the end results inherit nothing of the integrity of the original.

Furthermore, the reasons why American Idol contestants don't perform any of their own music are firstly because they'd then have to pay the contestants royalties, and secondly because even though the majority of the contestants on the show would presumably produce the kind of nauseating MOR soft-rock dirge that is the stock-and-trade of this kind of bullsh*t show, the audience won't have heard the songs before, and the show relies heavily on vampirising the past successes of established artists to gain credibility.

Moreover, whatever anyone thinks about Queen or Brian May or anything else, the simple fact is that they showed up and played ball because they got paid a lot of money. It's got nothing to do with how much respect they have for anyone.

If you enjoy the show, then that's great, man. But you should try to avoid getting suckered by its fairly transparent pretentions of legitimacy. If any of the contestants had a single iota of artistic integrity, they wouldn't be participating. Televised karaoke isn't art, it's just cheaply-made entertainment. And the only reason it exists is that some people derive money from it.

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Post by NiallB » Mon May 25, 2009 8:11 am

I would like a BEER :)

We all have our opinions, like I stated earlier, I'm not an Adam Lambert Fan, but obviously lots of people liked him.

As for the show, on some level, so what if it lacks artistic merit? I think someone has already said, most people in the "pop" genre, don't write their own stuff anyways. If everyone wrote their own material songwriters would be out of jobs.

Anyway, we all are obviously very opinionated on this subject (including myself...), so lets cool it a little bit eh? :)
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Post by bassdrop » Tue May 26, 2009 12:16 pm

I'm late to the party but I have to chime in a little. I'd watched idol the past couple of seasons and got a kick out of the performances, generally. What always amazed me was how much some of these people just plain sucked, all the way up to the finals. Watching the suck and then having Simon come up with his outlandish pseudo-witty metaphors was generally pretty entertaining, but to take it seriously in regards to artistic merit? Not so much. Every now and again you'd get a soulful performance, but there was always something cheesy and obnoxious going on. What I do think is cool is that a lot of older music comes back around on the show that young folks may not otherwise hear and I always hope they check out the real deal.

I couldn't watch this season because the fourth judge is too much. She's both obnoxious and has less to say in twice the words as Paula Abdul, who is still a pharmaceutical trainwreck in the making. But at least the latter is funny.
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Post by MaxRossell » Tue May 26, 2009 2:53 pm

bassdrop wrote:What I do think is cool is that a lot of older music comes back around on the show that young folks may not otherwise hear and I always hope they check out the real deal.
I admire your optimism, as unrealistic and misplaced as it may be.

Most of the non-musician, non-music-obsessed people I know, despite authoritatively declaring Alexandra Burke's pathetic cover of Hallelujah the best thing they'd ever heard, weren't even remotely aware that it wasn't an original song, and didn't have a clue who Leonard Cohen is. And what's more they weren't intererested.

These are not shows for inquisitive-minded people who, when they hear something they like, go and find out where it came from. These are shows for blank-eyed morons who slavishly and unquestioningly accept whatever content is put in front of them as their preferred cultural diet, because it saves them the trouble of independently developing their own intellectual culture.

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Post by bassdrop » Tue May 26, 2009 7:15 pm

MaxRossell wrote:
bassdrop wrote:What I do think is cool is that a lot of older music comes back around on the show that young folks may not otherwise hear and I always hope they check out the real deal.
I admire your optimism, as unrealistic and misplaced as it may be.

Most of the non-musician, non-music-obsessed people I know, despite authoritatively declaring Alexandra Burke's pathetic cover of Hallelujah the best thing they'd ever heard, weren't even remotely aware that it wasn't an original song, and didn't have a clue who Leonard Cohen is. And what's more they weren't intererested.

These are not shows for inquisitive-minded people who, when they hear something they like, go and find out where it came from. These are shows for blank-eyed morons who slavishly and unquestioningly accept whatever content is put in front of them as their preferred cultural diet, because it saves them the trouble of independently developing their own intellectual culture.
I was speaking to the exception and not the rule, certainly, as regards the majority of Idol fans, most of whom are impressed whenever a contestant can sing in tune for the majority of a phrase. My point really is that I at least appreciate music on TV, since MTV and VH1 generally show very little any more, and there aren't any of the variety and live shows like there were back in the 80's and earlier. Back then I remember ABC having a bunch of cool stuff like David Bowie's Glass Spider tour and The Who's original 20th anniversary concert of Tommy. You just don't see stuff like that anymore, and Idol is about as close at it gets, unfortunately.
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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Wed May 27, 2009 5:05 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwcJUhIa0U

The guy is not just some random chump off the street. He has serious talent, and....dare I say it....he has "it". The guy oozes charisma, is uber confident, has a unique style and vision, and can sing his tail off.

As for the show, it is what it is. It wouldn't hold peoples attention if they allowed nothing but original music. Besides, that's not the point. The show isn't about who can write the best song....it's about vocal ability, and vocal ability only. The other things that each individual bring to it are what sets the contestants apart.
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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Wed May 27, 2009 5:10 pm

xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote:
airforce_brian wrote:
xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote: that was the worst thing ive ever heard. it was torture to my ears. if cash were alive he would have adam lambert assassinated for butchering that song.

and thats the other thing, how do you know he arranged ring of fire like that? you dont. i would bet MONEY that someones job is to say "this week your going to sing ring of fire like this-" i bet theyre not doing anything themselves. it definitely isnt art, IMO.
How much money? They actually show him working with Randy Travis on the show arranging the song in that manner, and Randy Travis was "blown away" by his creativity. Also, he is the only one in the competition with unique arrangements like that. What exactly about it don't you like? It's a really unique arrangement and interpretation of that song, sung by a ridiculously good singer.

I get that people don't watch the show at all because they aren't in to it, but I honestly don't get how musicians can't appreciate good music or talent. Everyone is all for the lady on Britain's got talent, but just because this guy happens to be on American Idol you can't give him any respect? Totally bogus in my opinion. There is no way anyone can say this dude can't sing.
to be honest...i dont like his voice. at all. but i understand if you do. but when i critique a persons voice, range and how high they can go has nothing to do with it. and all i hear about adam lambert is "lykke 0hMg3e3ez his v0ic3 cAn g0 so0o0o hi1i1igGgHhh!!" but to me, he sound like 80's hair metal monotonous crap. its just not interesting. i think one of the best voices ive ever heard is david bazan's. SOOO much character, its like no one elses. and adam lambert is a total tool. you dont know that randy travis actually thinks that about adam lambert. it was probly his line in the script.

now- enjoy a clip of one of the most beautiful voices around. i was actually at this house show in fresno, CA and it was the most beautiful things ive ever seen in person. a youtube video doesnt do its justice.
(the song actually starts at 2:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLklmWHNsdo
I listened to this video, and I literally laughed out loud. I know about 15 guys in my area that sing at local clubs doing acoustic sets that sound as good or better than this guy. There is nothing special here.
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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Wed May 27, 2009 5:14 pm

xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote:
airforce_brian wrote:
xTRUTHOFMYYOUTHx wrote: typical!? thats crazy talk. ive never heard ANYONE like bazan. ive heard hundreds of adam lamberts.

the most remembered singers are never the ones that sounded the best.
cash,dylan,elliot smith= not american idol material. no one will know who adam lambert is in 1 year, i guarantee it.
I wouldn't be so sure of yourself dude. Brian May and Roger Taylor of Queen are considering Adam Lambert as their new singer. The guy is talented and has a huge fanbase already because of the show. I guarantee he is going to do something.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/i ... -frontman/

When it comes down to it, I listen to all music and I think it's incredibly narrow minded to ignore something because of preconceived notions or stereotypes about it. I don't care if it's Pop, Rap, Rock, Folk or anything else, if it's good I will listen to it.
oh i totally agree. i take in and respect ALL genres of music. but music is art. adam lambert doesnt make art.

if i went in my room and painted a copy of a van gogh painting, even if it was very similar, i would still just be a copy cat. and so far all ive seen is adam lambert sing other peoples songs. which means NOTHING. he might sing good but if he cant write a good tune then hes not really that talented.

and ever since freddie passed, queen has and never will be the same . its idiotic to try to keep it going. they need to give it up already.
He is not talented because he doesn't write a good song? I guess that llocal guitar player that conjures up Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoades, and SRV is just a talentless hack.....who knew?
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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Wed May 27, 2009 5:15 pm

Bandeapart wrote:I didn't read how Queen got on topic, but it's ridiculous for them to even be trying without Freddy. It's just craziness and retarded. Especially by replacing him with that Bad Company dude, that guy has no range compared with Mercury, and he's a little too straight for my liking, haha. Flamboyancy is required to front that band.

Too funny....have you heard Adam sing? Have you seen what he looks like?
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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Wed May 27, 2009 5:24 pm

MaxRossell wrote:
bassdrop wrote:What I do think is cool is that a lot of older music comes back around on the show that young folks may not otherwise hear and I always hope they check out the real deal.
I admire your optimism, as unrealistic and misplaced as it may be.

Most of the non-musician, non-music-obsessed people I know, despite authoritatively declaring Alexandra Burke's pathetic cover of Hallelujah the best thing they'd ever heard, weren't even remotely aware that it wasn't an original song, and didn't have a clue who Leonard Cohen is. And what's more they weren't intererested.

These are not shows for inquisitive-minded people who, when they hear something they like, go and find out where it came from. These are shows for blank-eyed morons who slavishly and unquestioningly accept whatever content is put in front of them as their preferred cultural diet, because it saves them the trouble of independently developing their own intellectual culture.
Wow! Well said I guess. I suppose I'm a slavering, blank-eyed moron then. But, I thought I was just passing time and enjoying a show that included both humor and talent on the same plate.

Seriously though, I think your comment was asinine and way over-generalized......try not to think too much. <shrug>
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Post by MaxRossell » Thu May 28, 2009 11:45 am

Asphalt Jungle wrote:
MaxRossell wrote:
bassdrop wrote:What I do think is cool is that a lot of older music comes back around on the show that young folks may not otherwise hear and I always hope they check out the real deal.
I admire your optimism, as unrealistic and misplaced as it may be.

Most of the non-musician, non-music-obsessed people I know, despite authoritatively declaring Alexandra Burke's pathetic cover of Hallelujah the best thing they'd ever heard, weren't even remotely aware that it wasn't an original song, and didn't have a clue who Leonard Cohen is. And what's more they weren't intererested.

These are not shows for inquisitive-minded people who, when they hear something they like, go and find out where it came from. These are shows for blank-eyed morons who slavishly and unquestioningly accept whatever content is put in front of them as their preferred cultural diet, because it saves them the trouble of independently developing their own intellectual culture.
Wow! Well said I guess. I suppose I'm a slavering, blank-eyed moron then. But, I thought I was just passing time and enjoying a show that included both humor and talent on the same plate.

Seriously though, I think your comment was asinine and way over-generalized......try not to think too much. <shrug>
That last bit in bold is deeply ironic, do you not think? You can't honestly find it asinine that I describe fans of this type of show as unquestioning morons, and then advise me to think less in order to back up your point.

My comments are generalisations only in the sense that it's a generalisation to say that everyone who likes M&Ms has a taste for refined sugar. The selection process involved in these shows is a systematic peer-approved search for diluted mediocrity in order to derive maximum profit from a lowest common denominator. The only talent available is that of the marketeers (if an all-consuming eagerness to actively devalue an art form for the sake of money can be described as "talent"). The only humour on offer is that of the producers and judges, who are laughing all the way to the bank.

If you derive some sort of entertainment value from the shows, then more power to you. But if you genuinely believe that there's even a vague connection between musical talent and the kind of sanitised fast-food commercial jingles these passionless preening fame-hungry idiots who volunteered for this trash are performing, then I'd invite you to start thinking more.

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Post by BrianFantana » Thu May 28, 2009 2:10 pm

Bandeapart wrote:That show makes me wanna gouge my eyeballs out and stick icepicks into my ears.
Agreed. Adam Lambert makes me want to puke. He's a no talent hack that's ridden the wave of sensationalism way too far...

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Post by Asphalt Jungle » Thu May 28, 2009 4:40 pm

MaxRossell wrote:
Asphalt Jungle wrote:
MaxRossell wrote: I admire your optimism, as unrealistic and misplaced as it may be.

Most of the non-musician, non-music-obsessed people I know, despite authoritatively declaring Alexandra Burke's pathetic cover of Hallelujah the best thing they'd ever heard, weren't even remotely aware that it wasn't an original song, and didn't have a clue who Leonard Cohen is. And what's more they weren't intererested.

These are not shows for inquisitive-minded people who, when they hear something they like, go and find out where it came from. These are shows for blank-eyed morons who slavishly and unquestioningly accept whatever content is put in front of them as their preferred cultural diet, because it saves them the trouble of independently developing their own intellectual culture.
Wow! Well said I guess. I suppose I'm a slavering, blank-eyed moron then. But, I thought I was just passing time and enjoying a show that included both humor and talent on the same plate.

Seriously though, I think your comment was asinine and way over-generalized......try not to think too much. <shrug>
That last bit in bold is deeply ironic, do you not think? You can't honestly find it asinine that I describe fans of this type of show as unquestioning morons, and then advise me to think less in order to back up your point.

My comments are generalisations only in the sense that it's a generalisation to say that everyone who likes M&Ms has a taste for refined sugar. The selection process involved in these shows is a systematic peer-approved search for diluted mediocrity in order to derive maximum profit from a lowest common denominator. The only talent available is that of the marketeers (if an all-consuming eagerness to actively devalue an art form for the sake of money can be described as "talent"). The only humour on offer is that of the producers and judges, who are laughing all the way to the bank.

If you derive some sort of entertainment value from the shows, then more power to you. But if you genuinely believe that there's even a vague connection between musical talent and the kind of sanitised fast-food commercial jingles these passionless preening fame-hungry idiots who volunteered for this trash are performing, then I'd invite you to start thinking more.


Well, yes, I suppose my statement would be ironic for one that is reading way too much into the subject. Simple entertainment. It's all just for entertainments sake, and to globally describe a person that enjoys this type of show as an unquestioning moron is, frankly, an insult to tens of millions of people. But, I'm sure you would consider them all wrong. How interesting.

Likewise, you must consider classic rock-n-roll or R&B to be "sanitized fas-food commercial jingles"......have you even seen the show? Or, are you just calling the shots form your bitter armchair? Sure, I agree that it's all for the sake of feeding the cash cow, but the music being performed is nothing close to how you describe it. It is what it is, try not to think too hard about it.

Thanks for the invite, but I do plenty of thinking in my real life....I try not to think too much about how American Idol is destroying the sensibilities of the masses on my free time.

Talent? You and I clearly have two different ideas about talent. We, as guitar players, likely hold players like Eddie Van Halen or Earl Klugh in high regard and would most likely describe them as talented. If you could conjure the same licks and feel (or...gasp....actually expand on it) as those two players and create the illusion for your audience that the original player was playing the instrument, would you consider yourself a talentless hack? Probably not. I fail to see how this is any different with vocals.

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