The joys of being in a band !!.....

Jabberwocky · Post by **Jabberwocky** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:29 pm

Sometimes I really appreciate this forum, cos I can have a gripe about band stuff with folks who will probably nod and say 'yeah....been there'.

One gripe you may be able to assist with, the other is just a plain grumpy ol' man gripe....

OK, gripe one: I find playing with a keyboard player frustrating sometimes, because at times the keys sound and my rhythm sound appear to occupy the same frequency range and thus my lovely chops end up swamped in a mire of Hammond sound, and his get lost in fine old Strat tones. I am the unofficial sound man for the band when we do not have an engineer but I do not know enough about it to successfully eq to separate the keys and rhythm sounds. Any tips will be gratefully tried !!

The other gripe is about lead solos. For some obscure reason, my drummer, bassist and keys player all seem to think that my guitar solos are a cue for them to go wild also, so my sweet Rocker 30 tones end up annihilated by a wall of drums, bass and keys. If I had a pound for every time I have told them to ease back and let the maestro have his turn to shine, I would be able to afford a Soldano, a Matamp AND a 65 to complement my R30.
Turning up my volume would be a solution, but then the band starts to get a rep of being 'too loud'. Any of you guys get this sort of idiocy in your outfits ??

Man....its good to get it off the chest !!

Maybe I will start doing solo acoustic gigs..........

airforce_brian · Post by **airforce_brian** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:41 pm

You should definitely be using a boost for solos so you stick out in the mix, that way even if they do go nuts, you will still be heard. In my opinion, a guitar solo should be as loud as the lead vocal because it is the lead melody during that part. If you already play with a pretty saturated distortion sound, try using an OD pedal on your clean channel and crank the level and then just adjust the gain until you get the sound you like. That'll give you more of a volume hike then boosting your drive channel.

As far as the mix with keyboards, I don't know what to do there. Maybe try panning each to opposite sides, or try some new parts out so you aren't playing the same frequencies all the time?

kittenface · Post by **kittenface** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:43 pm

#1 - dump the keys - it's a sissy instrument anyway and has no place in a real rock band

#2 - straighten out the band members regarding your solo's - if they can't or won't listen, dump them too

Thinline_slim · Post by **Thinline_slim** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:04 pm

#1 - dump the keys - it's a sissy instrument anyway and has no place in a real rock band

#2 - straighten out the band members regarding your solo's - if they can't or won't listen, dump them too

Easiest way to get to.....

Maybe I will start doing solo acoustic gigs..........

niangelo · Post by **niangelo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:12 pm

In terms of getting the hammond and guitar to shine individually, it's about 5% EQ and 95% what register you're playing in.

I've had to deal with this a lot - a newish keys player that doesn't get why he can't use both hands ALL THE TIME, or why he can't play rhythmically the entire time.

Be diplomatic. Talk to your keys player about how you're both muddying the sonic territory, and that working on individual parts in different registers would help that. - You sound better, I sound better, and the song sounds better. It's a win-win all around.

Then try it, and demonstrate why and how it helps the sound.

BrianGT · Post by **BrianGT** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:13 pm

I played in a band with "cissy" keyboards for years and the way around it is to speak to the keyboard player about his chord voicing.

Most Keyboard players play the route , third and fifth of a chord and on a keyboard that is a huge tonal range.....it takes up all of your range and you disappear. Especially if they use a heavy synth sound.

Try to get them to play tighter chord inversions..tell them it's Hip!

If they can leave out the route because the bass player is usually covering that and play more octaves and thirds, fifths......you will have more space.
You also need to have more treble than normal because witrh the cymbals and the hiss of the high frequencies on the synth you will not be heard.
Also.....try not to play barre chords yourself, unless of course the song needs it, try to play 3 note chords.....they will really cut through better.

Our keyboard player used to play piano through the solo of Alright Now.......until I accidentally hit him on the back of the head with my guitar!

blackcloud45 · Post by **blackcloud45** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:23 pm

Brian, that's too funny!

corky newman · Post by **corky newman** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:23 pm

+1 ditto brian..
I have played with keys alot with caligator...it does wipe out your tone on some things...but soloing over the thick keys is something only a few guitar players get to do in there lifetime..
I went trough alot of amps finding the right amp to deal with the keys...
the Mojave plexi 45 was the best....

Now we play live 3 piece, and the freedom is wonderful...I miss the big fat sound when i am soloing, but the rest of the time its wonderful to hear everything i am playing...I really worked many years on my rhythm work and I really love to hear it....i could very easy sit behind a great lead player all night long and be happy...

I dont like two ryhthm guitars in a band..i find it bland...rather have the keys if I could...dont get me wrong in a strong haevy rock band two guitars is fine, Im talking more..blues & fusion stuff...I like one guitar.

Drdos · Post by **Drdos** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:26 pm

kittenface wrote:#1 - dump the keys - it's a sissy instrument anyway and has no place in a real rock band

#2 - straighten out the band members regarding your solo's - if they can't or won't listen, dump them too

hahaha NICE!.. I totally agree!

Borderline Productions · Post by **Borderline Productions** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:59 pm

I've only played in one band with keyboards. I won't actively seek them out again. The only keyboards allowable are piano (and maybe a Fender/Rhodes if I'm in the right mood) and a B3.

Territory wars with the keys: play different rhythms. The B3 sounds best with sustain and the piano can accentuate different beats. Play in different octaves. Panning works on recordings, but not live.

Going apes*** during guitar solos: I recorded my nephew's band (keys, guitar, drums (no bass but that is another rant)) and during a guitar solo the drummer (16 at the time) became Animal from the Muppets on the cymbals. Couldn't hear a note of the solo. I loved it when Cream when in three directions during solos and it worked, but Ginger laid off the cymbals. Stress that everyone can have complete freedom within their zone. A good drummer with understand, but you may have to give him his own solo time.

Neiloler · Post by **Neiloler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:21 pm

Ask them how they feel the solos go and if they feel there's anything to improve how the music feels during that time.

The greatest bands throughout time are the ones who sacrifice self interest and ego to make sure the music is a group project. Sometimes that means giving the guitars the limelight, sometimes that means going in different directions, but just talk to them about it.

ESBlonde · Post by **ESBlonde** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:41 pm

Heres where a recording of rehearsals via a room mic will pay dividends.

So many Keyboardists learn proper technique and employ both hands on chords and melody and accompanyment and far too much for a band situation most of the time. So some education and compromise will be the answer here (on both your parts). Also get the Keys into line by asking them to leave some space for the singist. Eq wise you can cut the low mids on the keys and boost the hi a little because the keyboard covers a larger adui range than the guitar and so having it appear above and below the guitar in a mix suggests the whole tone without blasting through and causing mud. You might rethink your parts on guitar away from just thrashing chords to arpegios and riffs and such where appropraite.

The lessons are there for all to learn, the best recordings encompass these techniques all the time if you listen. Sadly too many musicians think that how much they can play or show off is what it's all about, in reality the opposite is the desired goal. Its about suggestion rather than forcing it down the gullet, space and air and pauses in an arrangement mean far more than a full sound because that clever brain thats listening will percieve a much better sound and follow closer to whats going on.

And everyone playing at once, well discipline again by the players, do you want the band to sound good or the individuals? That means that the guitar may not get all the solo duties too!

Anyway I hope thats food for thought.

Tango · Post by **Tango** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 pm

Don't ever use a keyboard in a band with a guitar, it's a crime against guitars.

BrianGT · Post by **BrianGT** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:44 pm

Don't ever use a keyboard in a band with a guitar, it's a crime against guitars.

Neiloler · Post by **Neiloler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:46 pm

Tango wrote:Don't ever use a keyboard in a band with a guitar, it's a crime against guitars.

Haha, the Tango has spoken.

The joys of being in a band !!.....

The joys of being in a band !!.....

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