What sounds better? (question for the older guys here)

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Bael
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Post by Bael » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:38 am

One of the reasons for the popularity of smaller combos and lower watt amps is the fact that you don't need the 100 watt Marshall or even Fender to be cranked to unreal levels (in most circumstances) to get some good poweramp distortion.

Plus, bands in the past, I feel, just PLAYED a lot louder in general. Musicians today are concerned about their ears (and rightly so), whereas in the past it was all new and the young guys with their 3 stacks of 100 watt amps woukld turn it up to 10 (or 11) and rock out with their **** out.

The music now doesn't even WARRANT it being so loud. It isn't so guitar driven and no one solos anymore.
LeonC wrote:I think lots of today's 15-30W amps are capable of sounding great and as everyone knows, the PAs today are almost infinitely more sophisticated and better-sounding. So I think the sound that is produced at concerts today, can be (though isn't always) a lot better.

One big problem at the few recent "big" concerts that I attended was the mix. E.g., I saw Jeff Beck a few years ago and the low-end was so incredibly loud in the mix that it was making me physically ill. I got as far away as I could from the speakers in watched the concert on closed circuit video up at one of the bars. Something happened within the last 10 years or so where sound men seem to think the bass and low-end has to pulverize the audience. God I just can't stand that!!!

Another problem is the same as it was back then--some big venues just sound like crap. Nothing's going to change that.

One last point. While a lot of low watt amps can really sound great, they will never--by definition--sound like (or feel like) really big amps. There's something about pushing that much air that just feels a lot different. E.g., I saw the original Fleetwood Mac (with Peter Green, Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwin) playing through some Fender amps--probably Dual Showman (based on videos I've seen)--and they were very loud...but it was a relatively small venue (held maybe 350 - 500 people) and there's just no way to duplicate that sound with small amps and 1x12 cabs. The big rigs were definitely part of the formula.

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Post by Le Chat Noir » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:08 pm

Bael wrote: The music now doesn't even WARRANT it being so loud. It isn't so guitar driven and no one solos anymore.
Sorry, but that is just a bunch of horse manure. What a terrible generalisation... unless you only watch top 40 shows on television and never step outside your door, you'll know that guitar-driven rock music is alive and well all over the world. Maybe it doesn't dominate the pop charts as it once did 30 or 40 years ago, but there are plenty of bands on the fringes of being big who rock just as hard, if not harder, than ever before. There are still plenty of bands cranking up to 11 and rocking out, but there are also plenty of bands making the most of modern techniques. These days, we're lucky to have the choice to do it either way and sound good!

I'd agree with others who have hinted at the lost art of sound engineering - it's shocking how bad the sound is even at some great venues with big bands, when all the gear is there to make an amazing sound possible. But it might also be a case of rose tinted specs when we think standards were any higher back in the day... I have a feeling we're more discerning now than ever before about sound quality. The bar is a lot higher these days. I watch some of those old videos of, for instance, Woodstock and you just know the sound was almost certainly pretty terrible for most of the huge crowd.
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Post by Knuckle Bones » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:44 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote:I'd agree with others who have hinted at the lost art of sound engineering .
Quick story of how I agree....

SXSW this year. Guest engineer for one of the bands. Really bad "I'm better than you" attitude. Said he'd been doing it for 20 years and was an Allen and Heath endorser so he didn't need an explanation of my system. Had to repeatedly bust his chops on running the gain to hot on channels on my console...which is an Allen and Heath! Sound was poor on top of that. So yes, lost art it is. Most guys run by the numbers rather than by the sound. It's a combination of both. Know how to use the gear (the "numbers") but also know what sounds good (the "art")!
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Post by chinese fork tie » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:07 pm

Knuckle Bones wrote:
Le Chat Noir wrote:I'd agree with others who have hinted at the lost art of sound engineering .
Quick story of how I agree....

SXSW this year. Guest engineer for one of the bands. Really bad "I'm better than you" attitude. Said he'd been doing it for 20 years and was an Allen and Heath endorser so he didn't need an explanation of my system. Had to repeatedly bust his chops on running the gain to hot on channels on my console...which is an Allen and Heath! Sound was poor on top of that. So yes, lost art it is. Most guys run by the numbers rather than by the sound. It's a combination of both. Know how to use the gear (the "numbers") but also know what sounds good (the "art")!
some friends of mine played their cd release show at a local amphitheatre a couple weeks ago. by all means, the show should've sounded phenomenal. the problem? the sound guy they had working the show didn't know how to mix rock bands or live hip-hop. judging by the sound of it, he couldn't properly mix a public speech. it's a common problem just about everywhere.
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Le Chat Noir
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Post by Le Chat Noir » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:41 pm

I do wonder though whether there really was ever a 'golden age' where there were good live rock sound engineers in abundance - I wasn't alive 30 years ago, but I have a feeling if I stepped into a time machine and arrived at a small to medium sized rock gig back in the 70s, the sound probably wouldn't be any better and the sound guy wouldn't be any more competent!

I think these days we're also more discerning about quality levels than back then. We all see and hear a lot more live music (e.g. via the internet and TV), so I'd guess our expectation levels are different to your average gig audience back then.
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Post by Bael » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:25 am

I think the statement that bands are rocking hard, "if not harder" today than in the past is beyond horse manure. It's actually hysterically funny. I know there are a lot of young guys out there and they want to rock and that's great.

I've stopped performing in public for the most part (I'll do a party or a bar once in awhile). I gave up thinking I could make a living with it a long time ago. Thankfully not too late like some of these people I see who refuse to realize they will never make enough money to live on, let alone THRIVE. I work for a living now. But I'm in Manhattan a lot checking out bands in the village and it's even getting harder to FIND a place where bands can play that isn't a big hall....like Webster Hall and stuff. You could't ESCAPE hard rocking, bluesy bands and eve bands playing real hard stuff during the metal periods. Youcouldn't escape it and people WANTED it...not rap and Beyonce and Kelly Clarkson and some whiny, over-rated "too hip for their own good" white band...like the Killers or Coldplay.

It's funny how Led Zeppelin couldn't get on the cover of Rolling Stone in their heyday and yet they have 'Lil Wayne on the cover, lauded as a "genius". Now they put Zeppelin on every other week because there is nothing new to put on there.

You also have to look at the perspective of the music. Bands like Black Sabbath were INVENTING genres of music. Blowing people away with an unheard of heaviness. Now to be REALLY heavy, you play 1000 miles an hour and go ROOOOOAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR. That's only that kind of music, though. Even your basic good all around rock and roll doesn't exist. When was the last guitar god? Eddie?

But get a grip and realize that the era of guitar rock is dead...and was dying for a long time, to some degree even during the late 80's.

You tell me ONE band that is supposedly rocking so hard.

Yeah, the clubs are packed with lots of weekend warrior rock stars and guitar slingers and wanna-bes playing cover tunes and a few of their sappy ballads and even some good "re-hashed" white boy blues and an attempt here and there to "rock". Some of them are good and very talented but guitar-rock is dead....so face that. I don't like it but it's true. A few guys with some Emo haircuts and a wristband doesn't mean rock is alive. It's actually sad how these little wannabes have to make sure they look the part but their music sucks.

Solos are dead. That's a fact. NO ONE plays solos anymore...mostly because they can't and don't NEED to. The overall mix is just a homogenous wash of sound with it being very hard to even pull the guitar or bass out of the mix.

Guys in playing in clubs don't count. They'll play there till they're 80 but the public isn't buying that kind of music anymore. Rap is the dominant radio play.

The metal of today is a bunch of shrieking cookie monster sounding idiots who can't sing about anyhting that isn't about the devil....which USED to be done well.

Say what you will but that's the way it is. I know for a young cat trying to play music it is a slap in the face. You're being told you basically don't rock. And you think you do, I'm sure. And who knows...if you have a band, maybe they do rock somewhat. But that ain't gonna change the scene. Yeah some retro sounding/looking band will come along but 16 year olds wearing AC/DC T-shirts is the closest these generations come to rock nowadays.

If you have an example of a new band that is popular and could be considered part of the music scene and that rocks, please tell me.

A few bands out there trying to rock doesn't mean anything against the bigger music picture.

That's funny, though; some bands today are rocking harder than they used to. Good one...

Le Chat Noir wrote:
Bael wrote: The music now doesn't even WARRANT it being so loud. It isn't so guitar driven and no one solos anymore.
Sorry, but that is just a bunch of horse manure. What a terrible generalisation... unless you only watch top 40 shows on television and never step outside your door, you'll know that guitar-driven rock music is alive and well all over the world. Maybe it doesn't dominate the pop charts as it once did 30 or 40 years ago, but there are plenty of bands on the fringes of being big who rock just as hard, if not harder, than ever before. There are still plenty of bands cranking up to 11 and rocking out, but there are also plenty of bands making the most of modern techniques. These days, we're lucky to have the choice to do it either way and sound good!

I'd agree with others who have hinted at the lost art of sound engineering - it's shocking how bad the sound is even at some great venues with big bands, when all the gear is there to make an amazing sound possible. But it might also be a case of rose tinted specs when we think standards were any higher back in the day... I have a feeling we're more discerning now than ever before about sound quality. The bar is a lot higher these days. I watch some of those old videos of, for instance, Woodstock and you just know the sound was almost certainly pretty terrible for most of the huge crowd.

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Post by nerd » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:57 am

Radiohead is one of those bands, Bael.

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Post by Bael » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:24 am

Yeah, exactly. Way overrated and considered to be genius. And they have to be married to a star to keep up the hip facade.
nerd wrote:Radiohead is one of those bands, Bael.

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Post by riffmonster » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:44 pm

Bael - I understand what you are saying... but how about Muse?

Saw them at Reading, massive sound live and lots of guitar heroics.

Also... Kings of Leon last year, big show, great sound, I know they basically use small combos miked-up, but it's still guitar-based rock'n'roll in my book. Both bands (in the UK at least) get loads of prime time TV & radio airplay etc.

I'd also seen loads of up-and-coming young bands, for example:

the Subways
Nine Black Alps

IMO guitar music is live and kicking, and just about commercially viable (in the UK)


:D
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Post by Knuckle Bones » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:48 pm

I disagree. There is a huge rock scene...but, it's not mainstream. I see tons and tons of under the radar touring rock bands come through Austin. Places like Stubb's BBQ, The Parish, La Zona Rosa and Antone's still support LOUD rock bands....and people still go see them! At SXSW I worked venues that were loud rock venues.....and they were full every night.

I agree that the arena days are over....right now....but you can make a living in music. Maybe not get filthy rich as easily (if it was ever easy) but you can make a decent living (pay for a house, drive a reliable car and eat more than just ramen noodles) working in the rock music business.

Make a paradigm shift.....it's not about limo's, stippers and doing coke anymore. It's about making a living at what you love doing. Forget playing arenas and start thinking about playing 300 capacity venues that you can pack and sell merch. Nobody gets signed and gets rich...you get signed and get taken advantage of. Fact is you don't need to get signed anymore to have a solid career in music. Learn the business and do it yourself.

I still play loud rock (albeit with a heavy redneck twang a la Supersuckers) and work in the music business beyond being in a band. I consider myself a success....it keeps a roof over my family and food on my table.
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Post by Le Chat Noir » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:51 pm

OK... firstly, to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to imply that rock is healthier now than ever before - far from it, I believe rock is a shadow of what it once was in terms of popularity.

I too despise the parody of rock that is emo, for instance, and I hate with a passion the kind of 'fashion rock' that lacks any kind of soul and is all about hairstlyes and clothes, with no substance.

Of course, some of my all-time favourite bands were from the 60s and 70s, and most of my modern favourites wouldn't exist without them - in no way am I trying to say that things are better now or trying to undermine those decades.

All I was trying to say was that if you love rock music and bother looking outside of the charts you will still find great rock bands all over the world. I agree, there are less proper rock venues and less decent rock bands at a grass roots level now than ever before - popular tastes have changed - but not *everyone's* tastes. There are still rock bands and rock fans everywhere I have been.

That said, let me try to respond to some of your points... remember, I'm not getting personal here so please don't take it the wrong way! I respect your opinions!
Bael wrote:You tell me ONE band that is supposedly rocking so hard.
OK, I'll name one - I think Queens Of The Stone Age rock as hard if not harder than, say, The Who, and a raft of other groups of that era. That's my personal opinion and I'm not saying everyone should agree - it might even be hilarious to you, as you say - but to simply deny there are no good rock bands anymore seems a little short sighted to me. You can't just write off all modern music just because your favourite bands happen to have been from 30 years ago.

Other bands from the 90s and 00s that I think rock pretty darn hard and were/are also 'fairly' successful, at least in my humble estimation, include Nirvana, At The Drive In, Pixies, Dinosaur Jr, Clutch, Mclusky, The Living End, The Black Keys, Reverend Horton Heat, Biffy Clyro, Motorhead, Wolfmother, And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead, System of a Down, Fu Manchu, The Mooney Suzuki... that's a short list of examples off the top of my head, I could go on... my point is, there are plenty of bands who still rock out. Outside of the mainstream, I could go on endlessly listing great underground garage rock and heavy rock bands from all over the world who continue to keep the passion of rock music alive - they're there if you bother looking and don't just give up on modern music.
Knuckle Bones wrote:I disagree. There is a huge rock scene...but, it's not mainstream.
Agreed, exactly what I said, and I stand by it.

As for the 'death of the guitar solo' - perhaps it's a generational difference, but I'm *glad* that less players do 10-minute, irrelevant guitar solos these days. To me, that's self-indulgent tosh and not what rock is about at all. Also I have to say, though I dislike metal personally, the self-indulgent guitar solo is certainly alive and well in that genre...

To me, rock music is essentially about passion, heart and spirit, and you can disagree if you want but there will always be bands out there with those things in bucket loads, even if they won't get hyped on MTV or mainstream radio.

Finally, what you said about not being able to make a living anymore out of music - I sympathise, I'm struggling myself to make ends meet and trying hard to be successful. I would dearly love to make just enough to live on out of music...

But to be honest, I bet things weren't much easier 30 years ago. There's still a huge amount of luck involved in being a successful band, and there always was. The music industry has never been a meritocracy.

At least now with the internet and modern global communication, it's easier than ever before for artists and fans alike to make direct connections. Personally, I'm glad I live in an age where as a low level musician I can make those kind of connections, in a way that was never possible even 10 years ago - I've been lucky to play on some great rock'n'roll stages and to have discovered first hand that rock music is alive and well all over Europe - I can't comment on the US.

Anyhow... I probably won't be able to reply to this post again for a while, as I'm off on tour to Belgium tomorrow for a week or two... playing some good old rock'n'roll shows to some appreciative rock'n'roll fans! :)
Teddy
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Post by nerd » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:31 pm

Bael wrote:Yeah, exactly. Way overrated and considered to be genius. And they have to be married to a star to keep up the hip facade.
nerd wrote:Radiohead is one of those bands, Bael.
For you they could be overrated, but who are you to say whats good and whats bad?

I agree that guitar based rock is no longer mainstream, but that doesnt mean that the whole scene is dead.
I saw Radiohead live and felt chills down my spine whenever they played a song i liked. If thats not rock and roll, then what is it?

Things evolve. Theres only a limited amount of zeppelins and sabbaths...
I agree with you with coldplay being overrated, but i think they dont fit in the rock category, for me its just soft pop.

Rock maybe dead for you, but its alive and kicking for many others.

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Post by mike » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:54 pm

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

One big problem at the few recent "big" concerts that I attended was the mix. E.g., I saw Jeff Beck a few years ago and the low-end was so incredibly loud in the mix that it was making me physically ill. I got as far away as I could from the speakers in watched the concert on closed circuit video up at one of the bars. Something happened within the last 10 years or so where sound men seem to think the bass and low-end has to pulverize the audience. God I just can't stand that!!!

OK, it's exactly that. I often wonder if sound engineers are deaf. The level of low end is too much loud and crashes the musical intention and our ears at the same times. WHY ?

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Post by tony_clifton » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:00 pm

Le Chat Noir wrote: Anyhow... I probably won't be able to reply to this post again for a while, as I'm off on tour to Belgium tomorrow for a week or two... playing some good old rock'n'roll shows to some appreciative rock'n'roll fans! :)
Hold those horses! Belgium, where?! :D

Mechelen area by any chance? Between Antwerp and Brussels that is!
Last edited by tony_clifton on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Knuckle Bones » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:00 pm

LF is tricky....lot's of phase issues go on with LF. The level at the console may not have been as much as the area you were in. In an arena sound is basically bad except at the console...that being said, if you want to hear the music as best as it's going to get, then stand close to the console...where you are hearing what the soundman is hearing. Of course if he sucks then you are screwed all around.
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