another one of my tone rants/Rockerverb discussion

BrianGT · Post by **BrianGT** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:29 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">better?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes.....much better.
I tried to ask it in the nicest way possible.......I didn't want to start a row on here or make anything worse.
I appreciate it .......

chinese fork tie · Post by **chinese fork tie** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:30 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chinese fork tie
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by somedude
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by airforce_brian
 Joshlespaul1952: If you don't personally like the clean channel that's fine, but the correct answer to hithere's question would have been "I don't personally like the clean channel, but most agree that it is very nice", or something along those lines. You are telling this dude that the clean channel sucks, when you know most people don't feel that way about it. Not cool.
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I don't know why everyone is bashing on Joshlespaul... You don't have to qualify your opinion by stating that "I personally really like the clean channel, but some feel that it's not very good." Why should he have to do the reverse?

Or is this going to turn into one of those forums where anyone who gives an honest opinion instead of toeing the company line is going to become a pariah?

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word. one of the best things i learned about writing is, in the case of stating an opinion, the phrase 'in my opinion' is useless. you're stating it, obviously we know it's yr opinion. if you're using someone else's opinion, by all means, reference them so when everyone else says what an idiot they are you can agree and quit speaking to that person forever. could josh have phrased his opinion better? sure, probably. in the grand scheme of things does it matter? not at all. but yeah, if you're stating yr own opinion, you can (and should) state it as fact. it's something you hold to be true, so why the hell not?

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Classic! It's like you didn't even get the meaning of the pic you posted in your own post! LOL!
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i wasn't arguing. just making a point. dude can state an opinion. since it's not politics, religion or guns, people can just respect the fact that he stated it. or, you know, you could ignore it. always an option.

Norrin Radd · Post by **Norrin Radd** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:39 pm

Well, here's how I look at it. People come to this board for advice and information - like you did. A simple one word answer of "no" doesn't really do a great job of answering the question. If someone's opinion is really going to be valuable - it ought to be supported by some experience/evidence. Maybe that's just my training taking over, but to me, I feel that my opinion is a lot more valid considering the time I've logged with the piece of gear and the paces I've put it through over that time. Playing the amp for 1/2 an hour in a music store just doesn't cut it as a basis for giving an informed review - especially when someone is asking for impressions - they aren't asking because they want to go try out the amp in the store and never play it again - they are asking because they are possibly going to lay out a lot of dough on something they are going to want to play and gig with for a long time.

In other words - when I look for an opinion on a piece of gear - I want to hear from people who have extensive familiarity with it in all kinds of situations. Whenever I read a review of any musical piece of gear that starts out "I tried that once in a music store......" I immediately stop reading because I know what follows is going to be absolutely worthless to me whether they say it sucks OR it's the greatest thing ever made.

When people come to a manufacturer's forum asking about gear - they ought to get info from people who have real experience with that gear. There are plenty of people on this forum who have owned RV50s, have played them extensively, have gigged with and ended up disliking them - they're opinions are as valid as my glowing reviews - and I have no problem with that. It angers me that someone who IS NOT familiar with the forum might come and a person who is not pretty intimate with the piece could shun them away form considering what might end up being their perfect amp. LOOK - it took BrianGT a year of hearing about the RV50 to understand how the clean channel really works - he finally got it. If it takes a guy like him, with his vast history of musical equipment owning and buying to get it, how can someone who just checks it out in a store for a few minutes nail it? I don't get THAT. It's like saying - I had a headache once so let me advise on how to deal with migraines.

AND, above and beyond that, anyone who wants the RV50 clean channel to be more " Fenderesque" need only do a quick search of this forum to find that a quick mod of changing out 1 component will get you a whole lot closer to that tone.

Anyways, that's enough for me.

chinese fork tie · Post by **chinese fork tie** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:51 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd
 Well, here's how I look at it. People come to this board for advice and information - like you did. A simple one word answer of "no" doesn't really do a great job of answering the question. If someone's opinion is really going to be valuable - it ought to be supported by some experience/evidence. Maybe that's just my training taking over, but to me, I feel that my opinion is a lot more valid considering the time I've logged with the piece of gear and the paces I've put it through over that time. Playing the amp for 1/2 an hour in a music store just doesn't cut it as a basis for giving an informed review - especially when someone is asking for impressions - they aren't asking because they want to go try out the amp in the store and never play it again - they are asking because they are possibly going to lay out a lot of dough on something they are going to want to play and gig with for a long time.

In other words - when I look for an opinion on a piece of gear - I want to hear from people who have extensive familiarity with it in all kinds of situations. Whenever I read a review of any musical piece of gear that starts out "I tried that once in a music store......" I immediately stop reading because I know what follows is going to be absolutely worthless to me whether they say it sucks OR it's the greatest thing ever made.

When people come to a manufacturer's forum asking about gear - they ought to get info from people who have real experience with that gear. There are plenty of people on this forum who have owned RV50s, have played them extensively, have gigged with and ended up disliking them - they're opinions are as valid as my glowing reviews - and I have no problem with that. It angers me that someone who IS NOT familiar with the forum might come and a person who is not pretty intimate with the piece could shun them away form considering what might end up being their perfect amp. LOOK - it took BrianGT a year of hearing about the RV50 to understand how the clean channel really works - he finally got it. If it takes a guy like him, with his vast history of musical equipment owning and buying to get it, how can someone who just checks it out in a store for a few minutes nail it? I don't get THAT. It's like saying - I had a headache once so let me advise on how to deal with migraines.

AND, above and beyond that, anyone who wants the RV50 clean channel to be more " Fenderesque" need only do a quick search of this forum to find that a quick mod of changing out 1 component will get you a whole lot closer to that tone.

Anyways, that's enough for me.
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well met, good sir. you do make a good point about using facts and concrete evidence to make an opinion more reputable. i'll try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth in the future.

BrianGT · Post by **BrianGT** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:56 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">i'll try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth in the future.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have all done it! I know I have...several times!:D

No harm done....nice to see it end up amicably.....

TJ_Lee · Post by **TJ_Lee** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:00 pm

The Clean channel is not fender this has been discussed like 10 trillion times. The dirt channel is amazing, just be sure to dial out the mud on most neck humbucking guitars.

chinese fork tie · Post by **chinese fork tie** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:08 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BrianGT
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">i'll try to avoid putting my foot in my mouth in the future.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have all done it! I know I have...several times!:D

No harm done....nice to see it end up amicably.....

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hate to flog a dead horse, but i'm a former debate student, and the saying goes, 'once a forensics geek, always a forensics geek.'

worst part of it is my tendency to play devil's advocate.

sleejay · Post by **sleejay** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:00 pm

I don't mean to be the devil's advocate, but...

15 minutes in a store is all you need to give an informative opinion, imo,

If that 15 minutes is gonna tell you "no, clean channel sucks", then so be it.

That's valuable information, because the next user might just be that kind of person.

Messing around with tubes/speakers/whatnot for months and months is not something that's expected from the end user, imo.

Not everyone is a gear freak like us. Not everyone is willing to go thru speaker changes and cap changes and mods and different EQ pedals and all.

I'm not saying that a gear freak opinion is bad - just saying that, a simple "no, I didn't like the clean channel at all" opinion from a non-geek point of view is also valuable information, especially to the average user.

What I'm saying is, all information is valuable, even the stupid comments on Harmony Central.

So nobody should feel bad about saying their opinion no a product, no matter how ignorant they are about it.

Anyway, cheers to the lovers and haters of the RV50 clean channel!!!

In the end, we're all Orange fans;)

somedude · Post by **somedude** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:16 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd
 Well, here's how I look at it. People come to this board for advice and information - like you did. A simple one word answer of "no" doesn't really do a great job of answering the question. If someone's opinion is really going to be valuable - it ought to be supported by some experience/evidence. Maybe that's just my training taking over, but to me, I feel that my opinion is a lot more valid considering the time I've logged with the piece of gear and the paces I've put it through over that time. Playing the amp for 1/2 an hour in a music store just doesn't cut it as a basis for giving an informed review - especially when someone is asking for impressions - they aren't asking because they want to go try out the amp in the store and never play it again - they are asking because they are possibly going to lay out a lot of dough on something they are going to want to play and gig with for a long time.

In other words - when I look for an opinion on a piece of gear - I want to hear from people who have extensive familiarity with it in all kinds of situations. Whenever I read a review of any musical piece of gear that starts out "I tried that once in a music store......" I immediately stop reading because I know what follows is going to be absolutely worthless to me whether they say it sucks OR it's the greatest thing ever made.

When people come to a manufacturer's forum asking about gear - they ought to get info from people who have real experience with that gear. There are plenty of people on this forum who have owned RV50s, have played them extensively, have gigged with and ended up disliking them - they're opinions are as valid as my glowing reviews - and I have no problem with that. It angers me that someone who IS NOT familiar with the forum might come and a person who is not pretty intimate with the piece could shun them away form considering what might end up being their perfect amp. LOOK - it took BrianGT a year of hearing about the RV50 to understand how the clean channel really works - he finally got it. If it takes a guy like him, with his vast history of musical equipment owning and buying to get it, how can someone who just checks it out in a store for a few minutes nail it? I don't get THAT. It's like saying - I had a headache once so let me advise on how to deal with migraines.

AND, above and beyond that, anyone who wants the RV50 clean channel to be more " Fenderesque" need only do a quick search of this forum to find that a quick mod of changing out 1 component will get you a whole lot closer to that tone.

Anyways, that's enough for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, in short... if people don't toe the company/forum line when giving their opinion they're going to get ridiculed for it by the self appointed opinion police.

Lame...

Norrin Radd · Post by **Norrin Radd** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:25 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sleejay
 
I'm not saying that a gear freak opinion is bad - just saying that, a simple "no, I didn't like the clean channel at all" opinion from a non-geek point of view is also valuable information, especially to the average user.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with you - except in this case, that was not the answer given - nor was that how the question was asked!

When you answer a question solely with a yes or no, there is no room for qualification. Yes and no are absolutes - the implication when being asked for an opinion and given a simple yes no answer, is that the giver of the answer is speaking with conclusive authority on the topic at hand. I would argue that is certainly NOT the case here. Sorry if you all think I'm picking on a kid - I don't care though. Communication over the internet is difficult enough without having to decipher every post in every thread for intent when language already provides us the tools to be perfectly precise in what we actually mean. This isn't the first time I've had an issue with people making misleading or misinformed statements on this forum and I doubt it will be the last. I will continue to critique and defend as I see necessary. If that requires pouncing on what I consider to be stupid statements, then so be it.

Norrin Radd · Post by **Norrin Radd** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:26 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by somedude
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd
 Well, here's how I look at it. People come to this board for advice and information - like you did. A simple one word answer of "no" doesn't really do a great job of answering the question. If someone's opinion is really going to be valuable - it ought to be supported by some experience/evidence. Maybe that's just my training taking over, but to me, I feel that my opinion is a lot more valid considering the time I've logged with the piece of gear and the paces I've put it through over that time. Playing the amp for 1/2 an hour in a music store just doesn't cut it as a basis for giving an informed review - especially when someone is asking for impressions - they aren't asking because they want to go try out the amp in the store and never play it again - they are asking because they are possibly going to lay out a lot of dough on something they are going to want to play and gig with for a long time.

In other words - when I look for an opinion on a piece of gear - I want to hear from people who have extensive familiarity with it in all kinds of situations. Whenever I read a review of any musical piece of gear that starts out "I tried that once in a music store......" I immediately stop reading because I know what follows is going to be absolutely worthless to me whether they say it sucks OR it's the greatest thing ever made.

When people come to a manufacturer's forum asking about gear - they ought to get info from people who have real experience with that gear. There are plenty of people on this forum who have owned RV50s, have played them extensively, have gigged with and ended up disliking them - they're opinions are as valid as my glowing reviews - and I have no problem with that. It angers me that someone who IS NOT familiar with the forum might come and a person who is not pretty intimate with the piece could shun them away form considering what might end up being their perfect amp. LOOK - it took BrianGT a year of hearing about the RV50 to understand how the clean channel really works - he finally got it. If it takes a guy like him, with his vast history of musical equipment owning and buying to get it, how can someone who just checks it out in a store for a few minutes nail it? I don't get THAT. It's like saying - I had a headache once so let me advise on how to deal with migraines.

AND, above and beyond that, anyone who wants the RV50 clean channel to be more " Fenderesque" need only do a quick search of this forum to find that a quick mod of changing out 1 component will get you a whole lot closer to that tone.

Anyways, that's enough for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, in short... if people don't toe the company/forum line when giving their opinion they're going to get ridiculed for it by the self appointed opinion police.

Lame...
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LOL!

Uh....did you actually read what I wrote? I'm hardly a company shill......

Opinion police? Not sure anyone wants to see me in a uniform. If you mean will I continue to speak my mind? Yeah. Is there some reason I can't have my opinions and express them too? Do I have to be on board with everyone in the forum? Do I have to agree with everyone's opinions? Do I have to give equal weight to all parties beliefs? NO, I don't - and I won't.

Sooner · Post by **Sooner** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:40 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by somedude
 So, in short... if people don't toe the company/forum line when giving their opinion they're going to get ridiculed for it by the self appointed opinion police.

Lame...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or the moderator or admin...

Norrin Radd · Post by **Norrin Radd** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:54 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sooner
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by somedude
 So, in short... if people don't toe the company/forum line when giving their opinion they're going to get ridiculed for it by the self appointed opinion police.

Lame...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or the moderator or admin...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Last I recall there was no requirement for anyone to be here. I often wonder why some of you "joker"s are even here.

somedude · Post by **somedude** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:19 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd

Opinion police? Not sure anyone wants to see me in a uniform. If you mean will I continue to speak my mind? Yeah. Is there some reason I can't have my opinions and express them too? Do I have to be on board with everyone in the forum? Do I have to agree with everyone's opinions? Do I have to give equal weight to all parties beliefs? NO, I don't - and I won't.
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Anyway.... to back this up a bit as I didn't intend on this being a lets beat on Norrin Radd thing and I think that aside from one small detail we largely agree on the subject (and it wasn't even your post that I objected to in the first place);

It's up to the guy who's seeking an opinion to decide for himself who's worth listening to and who isn't. I don't think the forum should be policing who's allowed to comment and who isn't. If one guy says the clean channel sucks, 3 guys say it's alright but nothing special, and another 3 guys say it's great.... the dude will draw his own conclusions. Yeah, the guys who've owned it and gigged it should be taken more seriously, but it doesn't negate the opinion of the guy who's only tried it and didn't like it as I don't feel that someone should be required to own and gig an amp they don't like just so they can be qualified to comment on it on this forum.

IMO.

Norrin Radd · Post by **Norrin Radd** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:23 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by somedude
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Norrin Radd

Opinion police? Not sure anyone wants to see me in a uniform. If you mean will I continue to speak my mind? Yeah. Is there some reason I can't have my opinions and express them too? Do I have to be on board with everyone in the forum? Do I have to agree with everyone's opinions? Do I have to give equal weight to all parties beliefs? NO, I don't - and I won't.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anyway.... to back this up a bit as I didn't intend on this being a lets beat on Norrin Radd thing and I think that aside from one small detail we largely agree on the subject (and it wasn't even your post that I objected to in the first place);

It's up to the guy who's seeking an opinion to decide for himself who's worth listening to and who isn't. I don't think the forum should be policing who's allowed to comment and who isn't. If one guy says the clean channel sucks, 3 guys say it's alright but nothing special, and another 3 guys say it's great.... the dude will draw his own conclusions. Yeah, the guys who've owned it and gigged it should be taken more seriously, but it doesn't negate the opinion of the guy who's only tried it and didn't like it as I don't feel that someone should be required to own and gig an amp they don't like just so they can be qualified to comment on it on this forum.

IMO.
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I can agree with all of that. NOW, let's go get a good BEER! I'm dying to try this one (and I found a store near me that carries it!):

OH YEAH: This beer is made by a forum member!

another one of my tone rants/Rockerverb discussion

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