30 watts? Enough? Too Much? Just Right?

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:31 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by irish_admiral
Too much sound washing around the stage makes things difficult for FOH PA, and kills the people at the front!
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Hey, what if it was your intention to kill the people at the front?? I think that's what most stoner bands are going for with their walls of cranked Matamps etc!

On a more serious note, Joe is right. Sadly, most guitarists are still operating in the 60s/70s in their minds, before the invention of proper sound reinforcement techniques.

irish_admiral · Post by **irish_admiral** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:05 pm

There's something to be said for a wall of sound, and if that's what the audience want, give it 'em all the way up to 11! I'm not averse to feeling my trousers flap when I hit a chord, however my ear drums are these days, and most people don't like being deafened.

I remember seeing footage Robbie Williams guitarist playing their Berlin stadium gig with a single Vox AC30 miked up... he had some nice tone.

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:04 pm

I was only joking about the stoner bands, personally I think it's silly when bands have walls and walls of 4x12s - fine if you're in a stadium and they're all empty and just there for the look, but as you say, these days you can play any venue with any size of amp. Zvex Nano at Wembley Stadium? Wouldn't have worked 30 years ago, but no problem now!

nguideau · Post by **nguideau** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:38 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by screamingdaisy
 I once plugged my air guitar into an imaginary wall of amps.

You should've heard the sustain.
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So much sustain I had time to go, get a bite, come back, and it was still ringing out.

screamingdaisy · Post by **screamingdaisy** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:57 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir
 I was only joking about the stoner bands, personally I think it's silly when bands have walls and walls of 4x12s - fine if you're in a stadium and they're all empty and just there for the look, but as you say, these days you can play any venue with any size of amp.
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So, it's alright to use lots of cabs for show in a stadium, but it's not alright to use lots of cabs for show in a club?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Borderline Productions
 Asked to sit in with a local cover band for a Halloween gig at a medium sized bar. When I asked how big of an amp to bring, the other guys were bringing 15 watt Fender combos. I brought a Crate Vintage 30 (all tube from the early 90s). I never got the master volume in either channel above 3 and had to cut the volume on the guitar otherwise I was too loud.

In this venue, the RV50 may have hurt people (and been much heavier to heft around).
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The RV50 has a master volume. If you're amp is too loud, you turn it to the left and it fixes the problem on the spot. The MV trick works both with microphones and without.

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by screamingdaisy
So, it's alright to use lots of cabs for show in a stadium, but it's not alright to use lots of cabs for show in a club?
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To me, a huge wall of 4x12s is just showing off and stroking your ego, whether in a big venue or small. It simply isn't needed these days! The whole trend began in a time when sound reinforcement was in its infancy and guitarists struggled to be heard in big venues. Now,. times have changed, but people continue to ape their favourite artists by using unnecessary walls of amplification. I'd bet that most cabs carried by stadium bands are unfilled dummies.

I don't see the point in playing through a wall of 4x12s in a tiny venue... you're only doing your back, not to mention people's ears, in.

Borderline Productions · Post by **Borderline Productions** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:12 pm

I was joking about the RV50, it would have sounded fine, but at the same time it would have been too loud. The 30 watt combo was heavy enough and was too loud.

The drummer was good (ie. not too loud), so it was not hard to be heard over him.

chimpboyjay1 · Post by **chimpboyjay1** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:14 pm

I agree with Teddy.

You see all these bands with walls of marshall amps - even though you know that they are not playing through marshalls. Its just an iconic image that people have grown to expect of bands.

screamingdaisy · Post by **screamingdaisy** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:28 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by screamingdaisy
So, it's alright to use lots of cabs for show in a stadium, but it's not alright to use lots of cabs for show in a club?
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To me, a huge wall of 4x12s is just showing off and stroking your ego, whether in a big venue or small. It simply isn't needed these days! The whole trend began in a time when sound reinforcement was in its infancy and guitarists struggled to be heard in big venues. Now,. times have changed, but people continue to ape their favourite artists by using unnecessary walls of amplification. I'd bet that most cabs carried by stadium bands are unfilled dummies.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

People like to see lots of speakers. When I was gigging my AD30 combo I'd place it on a 4x12 for a 3/4 stack effect (sounded better that way and was easier for me to hear, so I wasn't tempted to turn it up as loud). When I'd show up with just the combo, people would be dissapointed. I think they felt I was ripping them off by not giving them as good a show as I could.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't see the point in playing through a wall of 4x12s in a tiny venue... you're only doing your back, not to mention people's ears, in.
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I'll revise my previous statement;

The RV50 has a master volume. If you're amp is too loud, you turn it to the left and it fixes the problem on the spot. The MV trick works both with microphones and without, no matter how many speakers are attached to it.

As an example, you know when you show up to a gig and your AD30 is too loud and you turn the volume down on it? I do the same thing with my AD-140. The difference isn't the volume, the difference is that mine sounds cleaner than yours.

ESBlonde · Post by **ESBlonde** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:41 pm

The reason the beatles stopped doing live gigs in the mid 60s was because the PA of the day was a few hundred watts vocal only, no monitors and the backline was 50-100 watts, rarely a mic on the drum kit. In a theatre of 10,000 screaming girls (yea I get that too

) the boys would mime at times because they and no one else could hear.

Sound reinforcement proper began in the late 60s for things like Woodstock, but was low powered and poorly understood by nearly everyone.

Today the low cost of quality eguipment, the technology and understanding mean that things are very different. I carry 6,000w PA 2.5Kw 4 way monitors and would consider that capable of barely covering about 1500 people! But the real benefit is that the miced instruments can be made to cover the whole audience evenly rather than have the front row and a beam ahead of the guitarist only hear guitar when over on the other side the bass is killing. No balance no dynamics no music.

Its so easy but people still want to stroke thier egos. Most of the big stadium concerts with rows of Marshall cabs are just show. Marshall even make fake cabs about 4" deep (you can't tell from out front) and the sound comes from whatever amp the guitarist chooses, often miced off stage.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't get two in a bush

or something.

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:46 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by screamingdaisy
People like to see lots of speakers... when I'd show up with just the combo, people would be dissapointed. I think they felt I was ripping them off by not giving them as good a show as I could.
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To me, what you just said sums up the essence of why live music is messed up at grass roots level - a current preference for style over substance, on behalf of bands and audiences alike. I am not having a go at your personally, I just mean that if people come to a show and prejudge you on the size of your amp, then the world is a messed up place.

Personally I've never encountered anyone who has been vocally disappointed with the size of the amps at a show I've done, in fact most of them are more preoccupied with finding out how I got such a huge sound without a bassist! I regularly get told I have a fuller sound out front than bands carrying full stacks with a bassist, because if you get the full sound you want to begin with at a reasonable volume, and there is a decent PA, then any competent sound guy has something to work with - whereas if your onstage volume is ridiculous, then all he's doing is fighting a battle to get each element of the band heard over the amps.

I also ran my AD30TC for a while with PPC412 under it, until I got bored of carrying the PPC412 and realised it didn't add enough to the sound to justify the effort.

At the risk of sounding cliched... it's not the size that counts, but what you do with it. If someone is going to switch off and not watch because my amp is too small to attract their attention, quite frankly they can go screw themselves.

screamingdaisy · Post by **screamingdaisy** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:05 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir

At the risk of sounding cliched... it's not the size that counts, but what you do with it.
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Exactly. Now you're starting to catch on.

Orphin · Post by **Orphin** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:34 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Zvex Nano at Wembley Stadium? Wouldn't have worked 30 years ago, but no problem now!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
That one Teddy isn't a retard, that's for sure!

One wise statement after another..

irish_admiral · Post by **irish_admiral** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:11 pm

The guy from the Darkness had a wall of Marshall stacks for show... he miked up a Mesa offstage.

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:33 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by screamingdaisy
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir

At the risk of sounding cliched... it's not the size that counts, but what you do with it.
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Exactly. Now you're starting to catch on.

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So you agree with that statement, yet you still bring a 4x12 to shows for the reason that you worry about whether people will be disappointed if you 'only' have a 2x12 combo? I don't get it...

30 watts? Enough? Too Much? Just Right?

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