The cab and the volume...?

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Buckshot Jenkins
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Post by Buckshot Jenkins » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:05 pm

Howdy y'all. I am looking into buying the TT, and I will be moving from a house in frosty Syracuse, NY to hip Austin, TX. Unfortunately, I'll be trading a house for an apartment. My question is: what is the quietest cab I can buy for the darn thing? Is a 1X12 greenback cab much quieter than a 2X12 with V30's? I know that 15 watts is very loud for a small space, and that the cab probly won't be night and day different...but I'd like to make the effort to get a small setup. (Might get even smaller one day with a Zvex Nano) I appreciate any help, and I dig the forum...probly could have found the answer if I surfed enough!...8)

Orphin
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Post by Orphin » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I know that 15 watts is very loud for a small space, and that the cab probly won't be night and day different<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<br />
Correct. What you should look at in the speakers is not rated watts since that is only the resistance, but after the sensitivity in dB.

Although your only remedy is to get an attenuator to get any decent crunch through a tube amp in an apartment.
Trust me, I already have the ZVex Nano and there's no way I can crank it at home (even through a 112 cab). I play with volume at about 10 o'clock for a clean tone and then use an overdrive pedal to get distortion.
David
I'm speaking out of my a$$. Yours might differ.

mr_william
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Post by mr_william » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:17 pm

its the speaker sensitivity which determins its efficiency, the wattage rating is the power handling of the speaker - as long as its 15 or higher your good to go with the tt!

just to let you know, a 3db increece, is like doubling the amps power..

the g12m is rated at 96db's and is the lowest offering from celestion i believe? though im not 100% sure!

the tt can be picky with speekers, and its proberbly best to try before you buy if you can..

i have a tt, and i tried it with a g12t75 cab... a marshall.. and hated it.. with a v30 cab.. it sounded much better!

i wrote this on the tt club thread.. seems like you'll be wanting to do the oppasite.. appologies for the long read!

Choosing a speaker cab for your TT.

as the tt is a low wattage amp it can be important when gigging to convert as much of the watts into db's as possible. speaker efficiency plays a very big part towards this. all orange cabs come loaded with 16 ohm Celestion Vintage 30's at the moment. these speakers have a 100db sensitivity rating and are therefore quite loud speakers - compaired to the Celestion G12t-75 that Marshall often use that has only a 97db rating. this doesnt sound like a lot - however db's work on a logarythmic scale and 3 db's approx. the same as doubling the amps power!

as well as this, acoustic coupling happens in multiple speeker cabs with cabs featuring "identical" speakers. the simple rule is, for each identical speeker, 1db is added per speeker - for the current orange range, that would be 100db's for the 1x12, 102db's for the 2x12 and 104db's by the 4x12.
Will.
Bink wrote:Will you're a genius!! :D
Randy Bass wrote:For the record, mr_william is a genius :D .
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Bink
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Post by Bink » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:13 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Buckshot Jenkins</i>
<br />Howdy y'all. I am looking into buying the TT, and I will be moving from a house in frosty Syracuse, NY to hip Austin, TX. Unfortunately, I'll be trading a house for an apartment. My question is: what is the quietest cab I can buy for the darn thing? <b>Is a 1X12 greenback cab much quieter than a 2X12 with V30's?</b> I know that 15 watts is very loud for a small space, and that the cab probly won't be night and day different...but I'd like to make the effort to get a small setup. (Might get even smaller one day with a Zvex Nano) I appreciate any help, and I dig the forum...probly could have found the answer if I surfed enough!...8)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have a V30 loaded 1x12 and a Heritage G12M loaded 1x12 and the G12M loaded cab is noticeably quieter for the same amp settings than the V30 loaded cab. I would estimate that for the same percieved volume you can put the TT's volume up approx 1-2 notches.

For me it's just enough to allow the poweramp distortion to start kicking in a bit more, although it just continues sounding better as you wind it up.

I actually prefer the sound of the heritage greenback to the V30 but it's all personal taste.
Chris
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Past: AD15
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Dr Dildo
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Post by Dr Dildo » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:29 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mr_william</i>
<br /> the g12m is rated at 96db's and is the lowest offering from celestion i believe? though im not 100% sure!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Here's one that's only 8 inches and 93dB http://professional.celestion.com/guita ... .asp?ID=11

[:p]
Slick Willy

mr_william
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Post by mr_william » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:39 pm

i was reffering to the 12"ers..

but yeah, the smaller sizes offer less volume per watt... cheers big willy!
Will.
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Andy H.
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Post by Andy H. » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:30 pm

Welcome Buckshot Jenkins to the odd little world of the Orange Forum. :)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Orphin</i>
<br />What you should look at in the speakers is <b>not rated watts since that is only the resistance</b>, but after the sensitivity in dB.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah, and there was me thinking the watt was a unit of <b>power</b>, and that resistance and (for speakers) impedance were measured in ohms... [:p]

Speaker sensitivity (= efficiency) is measured in <b>dB/w/m</b>, meaning sound pressure level (volume) in decibels for one watt power input measured at one meter distance. (Just nit picking on the last one mind - it is usually just shortened to 'db' right enough.) ;)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mr_william</i>
<br />as the tt is a low wattage amp it can be important when gigging to convert as much of the watts into db's as possible...


...as well as this, <b>acoustic coupling happens in multiple speeker cabs with cabs featuring "identical" speakers. the simple rule is, for each identical speeker, 1db is added per speeker</b> - for the current orange range, that would be 100db's for the 1x12, 102db's for the 2x12 and 104db's by the 4x12.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The 'rule' isn't really adding 1dB per speaker. (Then you'd get 101dB/w/m for a 2x12, 103dB for a 4x12.) Closer to the truth is adding 2dB per doubling of the number of speakers, ie
1x12 100dB
2x12 ~102dB
4x12 ~104db
8x12 ~106db.
All just approximately though - it is a rough guide, not a 'rule' at all.

Here is another rough guide:
15 watts is <u>way</u> too loud for apartment volumes.
1.5w would still be too loud - half a watt would be closer. Guess why ZVEX made the Nano...

To achieve the same drop in volume (15 w to 0.5w) through using less sensitive speakers with the TT you'd need a speaker something around 15dB less efficient, around 85dB/w/m. And sorry, I can't think of <i>any</i> guitar speakers with a figure anything like that low, let alone any that would sound half decent.

The standard 25w G12M Greenback is now rated at 98dB, the 20w Heritage' model at 96dB. You'll be hard pressed to find very many under about 93 - 95dB efficient. As mr_william rightly says the need for more not less efficient speakers has always been part of guitar driver design.

Maybe one day there'll be an '<font color="orange">NanOrange</font id="orange">'. Thats what you want for apartment volumes. Or a good amp attenuator, the THD Hotplate being the one I use. :)


Andy.
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Bink
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Post by Bink » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:52 pm

Agree with Andy, although he does say he isn't expecting night and day difference and that 15w is still going to be loud, just looking for a small bit of extra play...

NanOrange - Now that would be something!!! :D A single ended EL84 design similar to the AD5 would also be v.cool!
Chris
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GuitarMD
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Post by GuitarMD » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:09 pm

Get an Attenuator!
This is really the major solution for solving volume problems.

THD Hotplate, Weber Mass, BadCat Leash, Dr. Z Airbrake.
Are the ones I would look into.

~GuitarMD~
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Fender Blues Deluxe (modded JJ6V6s) + Extn Cab.

Buckshot Jenkins
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Post by Buckshot Jenkins » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:52 pm

Thanks everybody! Got home from work and I couldn't believe the post (which has most likely been put up closely worded before) got great responses. I am torn between the TT and the Nano for a first purchase. I am leaving my band, so my JCM900 is not gonna see much action. I am going to play in an apartment, and record there too. I was thinking of the TT because it seems that it can be played out at small clubs (hopefully A/B'd with a clean feller), and although it wouldn't be pushed hard to reach that golden tone in an apartment, I can always turn up the gain and at least have some decent usable distortion. I hope! I learned of the Nano here, and it's got me torn like a girl deciding between that dreamy bad boy in prison and that mama's boy that loves me and is wealthy...eh, maybe not exactly that way. What a damnable curse it is to lust after low watt class A amps! Maybe I'll stumble upon that garage in Austin where the Blackhearts are being designed.;) Thanks again y'all!

dylan
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Post by dylan » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:02 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Buckshot Jenkins</i>
<br />Thanks everybody! Got home from work and I couldn't believe the post (which has most likely been put up closely worded before) got great responses. I am torn between the TT and the Nano for a first purchase. I am leaving my band, so my JCM900 is not gonna see much action. I am going to play in an apartment, and record there too. I was thinking of the TT because it seems that it can be played out at small clubs (hopefully A/B'd with a clean feller), and although it wouldn't be pushed hard to reach that golden tone in an apartment, I can always turn up the gain and at least have some decent usable distortion. I hope! I learned of the Nano here, and it's got me torn like a girl deciding between that dreamy bad boy in prison and that mama's boy that loves me and is wealthy...eh, maybe not exactly that way. What a damnable curse it is to lust after low watt class A amps! Maybe I'll stumble upon that garage in Austin where the Blackhearts are being designed.;) Thanks again y'all!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

matamp minimat 2 is very cool and only 4 watts...

http://www.matamp.co.uk/amps.htm

...sorry, another product to confuse you with :?[:p]
~Ian~

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