Orange font

Post by **alexauxier** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:52 pm

That is a great explanation!

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:03 pm

I asked her again today, she is adamant she typeset that first logo for the shop, as that says above that was before the amps even existed... either way, the font was not made from scratch for Orange - it is a standard 60s typeface and existed prior to the company using it. It's the claims that Orange invented the font which are the biggest distortion of the truth.

She is a bit computer shy, but I will try to get her to write down how she remembers it sometime.

Satanic_Versus · Post by **Satanic_Versus** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:39 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joker
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by alexauxier
 That is a great explanation!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, except that it doesn't explain the connection to Le Chat Noir's Mum.....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

seems like Le Chat Noir is being snuffed

Jon

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:27 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joker
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir
 I asked her again today, she is adamant she typeset that first logo for the shop, as that says above that was before the amps even existed... either way, the font was not made from scratch for Orange - it is a standard 60s typeface and existed prior to the company using it. It's the claims that Orange invented the font which are the biggest distortion of the truth.

She is a bit computer shy, but I will try to get her to write down how she remembers it sometime.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sort of like the previous version of Orange history which neglected to mention Matt Mathias or Matamp at all... [:0]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

this makes me really sorry... what happend between MatamP & Orange... i always thought its those both companys against the whole world thing...

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:37 am

No disrespect to Cliff or anyone else involved with Orange, but it generally seems like their 'official' history is pretty much whatever they want it to be...

Orphin · Post by **Orphin** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:38 pm

I've been reading through this thread and I just have to share my opinion and some facts:

First of all, there is no doubt in the world that the font is anything Cliff or anyone else own the rights to. That font is used all over Denmark street.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Where this font is used commercially, for profit, by anyone outside of
Orange - Cliff will take legal action.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
If that would be true, Cliff would have sued half of all shops on Denmark street.

Also, I have no reason to doubt that Le Chat Noir (Teddy?)'s mother made the original logo, and if this would ever go as far as to court, those original drawings would win the case.

If it comes down to which amplifier brands that would have legal right to use the font, Matamp have as much rights as Orange since when the font was first used under Matamp Orange co-op.

I actually spoke to Jeff Lewis about this, and he said that they could use the font as much as they wanted but they didn't have the rights to type "Orange" with it.
Matamp is a company that are very keen on following rules and regulations in general, and if Jeff wouldn't be certain of the use of this font he wouldn't take any chances..

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sort of like the previous version of Orange history which neglected to mention Matt Mathias or Matamp at all...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
Yeah, that is such a bore. I mean, isn't history about telling the truth, and not part of the truth??

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There was something very different going on in the Eighties: changes in the world economy meant that spending hit a low. Fashions changed, but more importantly, pop music changed it's face again. The synthesizer that we all knew and loved for it's odd and unpredictable noises became more and more sophisticated, until whole records could be created from inside a small grey box. The popularity of disco originating from the gay scene across the pond, backed by all manner of music industry skullduggery that is not my place to discuss here, meant that dance music exploded onto the charts.

Very few true rock bands survived, and most of those that did were American. Most amplifier manufacturers made the decision to forget about standards and do whatever was possible to shift their cheaply constructed products. The American bands were often persuaded in a variety of ways to take shipment of these transistor amplifiers, that soon became standard issue for such acts.

Orange were not prepared to lower standards of production just to sell the range, but the result of this was the range seeming expensive, compared with the lesser calibre models on the market, and call for the famous brand subsided. The organisation was forced to contract, and it looked for a time like it was going to be impossible to continue trading. The range flowed out only to those who truly believed in the quality, warmth and tone of well-built British valve technology.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

:D
What a laugh. Nice twist on that one.
Makes me wonder if the writer was just guessing when he wrote this.

If it would be true, how come Matamp didn't go under..? [:p]
And didn't Marshall release one of their legendary models in JCM800, 1981?? [:p]
'nuff said..

Post by **bclaire** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:30 pm

I'll get on that...

Overall, it's very interesting! It doesn't sound like the original font was designed by anyone connected to Orange if it was a rub-off typeface- it means it was designed previously. Teddy's grandmother simply put it together for Cliff, which is what is said here:

I spoke to Cliff today and mentioned the question of the origin of the Orange logo - his answer was simple 'I designed it originally, but as I'm not an artist I had to get others to clean it up for me.'

Since that typeface was widely and freely available for artists to use, ANYONE would have the right to use that typeface for any purpose. Orange can trademark the specific letters of their name with the font as a trademark, but that doesn't mean anyone else would be prevented from using that specific original font...

Orphin · Post by **Orphin** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:18 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joker
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Orphin
 I've been reading through this thread and I just have to share my opinion and some facts:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Now if we could just figure out which comments are opinions and which ones are suppose to be facts... Maybe you could colour the facts green and the opinions red or something like that?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
Facts:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That font is used all over Denmark street.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I actually spoke to Jeff Lewis about this, and he said that they could use the font as much as they wanted but they didn't have the rights to type "Orange" with it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Matamp is a company that are very keen on following rules and regulations in general<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Matamp didn't go under<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Marshall release one of their legendary models in JCM800, 1981<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
Rest is opinions..

BrianGT · Post by **BrianGT** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:45 am

Teddy.......somewhere in there you have a great story!

The fact that you play Orange adds to the story.......I just hope that ego's don't get in the way of the truth and that your Mother's part in the beginning of all this is conveniently forgotten.

Le Chat Noir · Post by **Le Chat Noir** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:49 am

Well, she's not interested in any recognition or glory and neither am I, all I was really seeking to do by bringing it up was to say I don't see how using that font can be copyright infringement, as it is only a slightly modified version of an existing font! All the 'new' font is is the original font, but filled in with black! If a company started having their logo in Times New Roman, then said nobody else can use that font because it's theirs, we'd all laugh at them, I don't see this is much different to be honest.

acepdistra · Post by **acepdistra** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:11 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joker
from a quote by Richard Crediton-Hughes
 

With regard to Matamp. I'm not going to pull any punches here. They
have no legal right to the use of the font, and have only done so to
keep alive some 'perceived' association with Orange's superior product
and name. It's down to Cliff if he allows them to use the font, even
if this is under sufferance!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I own an Orange Matamp prototype amplifier.
It is a Matamp Series 2000 amplifier internally.
It has a picture-frame style case.
It was originaly covered in orange Tolex.
It has the Orange Matamp logo on the front.

It was built in 1968.

These are all facts and in no way 'perceived'.

[email protected] · Post by **[email protected]** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:39 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Le Chat Noir
 I asked her again today, she is adamant she typeset that first logo for the shop, as that says above that was before the amps even existed... either way, the font was not made from scratch for Orange - it is a standard 60s typeface and existed prior to the company using it. It's the claims that Orange invented the font which are the biggest distortion of the truth.

She is a bit computer shy, but I will try to get her to write down how she remembers it sometime.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi we've been in touch before about this very question. Cliff does remember your mother and has said that many people asscociated with the shop were doing all sorts of creative stuff. However the 'Orange' logo, was originally 'designed' by Cliff himself. All I have done as have others in the past is 'cleaned it up'. There is mention of the fact my version is a solid faced font, this is only one derivitive of the final font submitted for copyright. there are many versions with outline (as on heads and combos) there are colour versions, as well as the '3D' version I introduced around 2001. I have no claim over the original design. It is probable a standard sixties font exists from which initial ideas were taken. If as you say, your mother did the original design from an existing font, this is typography rather than design, and with the greatest respect, only the word 'Orange' figures in this typographical layout. From my conversations with Cliff, he has pointed out this fact - 'The logo was hand drawn for advertising, this is why it looked slightly different each time an ad was produced, we had no computers, everything was done by hand back then....' I have many examples of advertising from the late 60s if you would like an example. From the word 'Orange', I designed a complete font, which I then assigned to Cliff.

[email protected] · Post by **[email protected]** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:47 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Orphin
 I've been reading through this thread and I just have to share my opinion and some facts:

First of all, there is no doubt in the world that the font is anything Cliff or anyone else own the rights to. That font is used all over Denmark street.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Where this font is used commercially, for profit, by anyone outside of
Orange - Cliff will take legal action.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
If that would be true, Cliff would have sued half of all shops on Denmark street.

Also, I have no reason to doubt that Le Chat Noir (Teddy?)'s mother made the original logo, and if this would ever go as far as to court, those original drawings would win the case.

If it comes down to which amplifier brands that would have legal right to use the font, Matamp have as much rights as Orange since when the font was first used under Matamp Orange co-op.

I actually spoke to Jeff Lewis about this, and he said that they could use the font as much as they wanted but they didn't have the rights to type "Orange" with it.
Matamp is a company that are very keen on following rules and regulations in general, and if Jeff wouldn't be certain of the use of this font he wouldn't take any chances..

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sort of like the previous version of Orange history which neglected to mention Matt Mathias or Matamp at all...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
Yeah, that is such a bore. I mean, isn't history about telling the truth, and not part of the truth??

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There was something very different going on in the Eighties: changes in the world economy meant that spending hit a low. Fashions changed, but more importantly, pop music changed it's face again. The synthesizer that we all knew and loved for it's odd and unpredictable noises became more and more sophisticated, until whole records could be created from inside a small grey box. The popularity of disco originating from the gay scene across the pond, backed by all manner of music industry skullduggery that is not my place to discuss here, meant that dance music exploded onto the charts.

Very few true rock bands survived, and most of those that did were American. Most amplifier manufacturers made the decision to forget about standards and do whatever was possible to shift their cheaply constructed products. The American bands were often persuaded in a variety of ways to take shipment of these transistor amplifiers, that soon became standard issue for such acts.

Orange were not prepared to lower standards of production just to sell the range, but the result of this was the range seeming expensive, compared with the lesser calibre models on the market, and call for the famous brand subsided. The organisation was forced to contract, and it looked for a time like it was going to be impossible to continue trading. The range flowed out only to those who truly believed in the quality, warmth and tone of well-built British valve technology.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

:D
What a laugh. Nice twist on that one.
Makes me wonder if the writer was just guessing when he wrote this.

If it would be true, how come Matamp didn't go under..? [:p]
And didn't Marshall release one of their legendary models in JCM800, 1981?? [:p]
'nuff said..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So true - except at the time I designed all of those sunblinds and A frames which are still all over Denmark Street - Cliff owned 9 shops there! World of Music used the Orange font - the PA center still does (owned by Cliff's nepheew!)

[email protected] · Post by **[email protected]** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:53 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by acepdistra
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joker
from a quote by Richard Crediton-Hughes
 

With regard to Matamp. I'm not going to pull any punches here. They
have no legal right to the use of the font, and have only done so to
keep alive some 'perceived' association with Orange's superior product
and name. It's down to Cliff if he allows them to use the font, even
if this is under sufferance!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I own an Orange Matamp prototype amplifier.
It is a Matamp Series 2000 amplifier internally.
It has a picture-frame style case.
It was originaly covered in orange Tolex.
It has the Orange Matamp logo on the front.

It was built in 1968.

These are all facts and in no way 'perceived'.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your reply says it all - you have an ORANGE Matamp. This is not what I would consider recent use of the font..... Besides those original Orange Matamps were great - compare one with a more recent non Orange variety...

Orphin · Post by **Orphin** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:32 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So true - except at the time I designed all of those sunblinds and A frames which are still all over Denmark Street - Cliff owned 9 shops there! World of Music used the Orange font - the PA center still does (owned by Cliff's nepheew!)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
TouchÃƒÂ©!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Your reply says it all - you have an ORANGE Matamp. This is not what I would consider recent use of the font..... Besides those original Orange Matamps were great - compare one with a more recent non Orange variety...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 
I think what Andy was trying to point out is that his amp was built in 1968 and already by then had the Orange logo.
His amp is the very first ever Orange amp and was built before the ten prototype amps for Fleetwood Mac. This has been confirmed by builder John Firth.

Orange font

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