Speaker Change for Rocker 30 combo. suggestions?

Marlis · Post by **Marlis** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:28 am

I'm thinking of swaping the vintage 30 out of my rocker combo. Am I the only one who thinks this speaker doesn't sound very vintage? What speaker should I go with? I'm thinking of maybe a jensen alnico but I don't want to lose the british voice of the amp. If I get a speaker rated at 30 watts, like the 30 watt greenback, am I gonna lose clean headroom? Should I go Alnico or Ceramic? I do know I don't want a speaker with earlier breakup. I find the V30 to be harsh and aggressive at times. I hear the weber blue dog and silver bell are great speakers, does anyone have one in their Rocker combo? Alnico or ceramic? What do you guys think?

TheOrangeJuicer · Post by **TheOrangeJuicer** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:20 am

It depends upon what you want to get out of it. I guess "vintage sound" means different things to different people. Not much to go on there. Do you want a warmer, darker sound or a more punchy, brighter sound for instance?

First, if your amp is new, don't pass judgement just yet. Play it for a month or two, then think about it again. It takes about 50 hours of playing time to break in a big speaker like that. That's a lot of blisters! The V30 is a great match for the amp by a lot of people's standards.

Second, take a look at what brand tubes are in the preamp and driver section. Those can alter the sound quite a bit and are even more affordable than a speaker swap.

Andy H. · Post by **Andy H.** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:19 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Marlis
 I'm thinking of swaping the vintage 30 out of my rocker combo. Am I the only one who thinks this speaker doesn't sound very vintage? What speaker should I go with? I'm thinking of maybe a jensen alnico but I don't want to lose the british voice of the amp. If I get a speaker rated at 30 watts, like the 30 watt greenback, am I gonna lose clean headroom? Should I go Alnico or Ceramic? I do know I don't want a speaker with earlier breakup. I find the V30 to be harsh and aggressive at times. I hear the weber blue dog and silver bell are great speakers, does anyone have one in their Rocker combo? Alnico or ceramic? What do you guys think?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Marlis. Welcome!

No I agree with you totally. The 'Vintage 30' is badly named - doubly so in my book. It isn't a 30 watter. (Though admittedly 30 cm is pretty much exactly 12".

) And it certainly doesn't sound very 'vintage' to me at all. In fact not at all IMO. I find its a fairly agressive modern sounding driver. I do like it though and I also agree with OJ that it is a great match for Orange amps, old and new. As he says give it a chance. It is a speaker that is notorious for taking a while to break in properly and it does loosen up quite nicely. But it'll never lose those agressively peaky upper mids...

"Greenbacks"? Well you probably already know that covers a lot of different and pretty different sounding drivers.
http://forum.orangeamps.com/viewtopic.p ... greenbacks'

But yeah I reckon the 30w G12H 'Greenback' which Celestion have out now would be a very good bet for that amp. Unlike the 25w G12M it doesn't go into breakup too early. And unlike the mids rich (but not much else) G12M, all G12Hs have nice full bass, rich but smooth mids, and more extended sweet but never harsh treble. Not that unlike a V.30 with smoother mids. Can still rock out though, but maybe not ideal for very high gain sounds.

The Heritage Series 30 watter 'Greenback' is a made in UK resissue of the 55Hz low resonance 'bass version' G12H. I've got a '70s original 55hz G12H and it is my favourite all round driver, great for clean through heavy drive sounds. A bit more bottom end still than the (also great sounding) standard 75Hz G12H, but still basically as rich and sweet through the mids / top. Perfect for the heavier rock sounds with a fair bit of clean headroom when needed. I know that slotting in my oldie will be one of the first mods I'll try when I get an R.30C myself. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find myself buying a newbie to stay right in there. I'll also be giving the V.30 a good chance to prove itself with that amp too though. The amp was designed with that speaker in mind of course...

I'd honestly go with ceramic rather than alnico magnets myself for that amp. I love the great Celestion (and other) alnico speakers as much as most. But while they are great for clean through moderate crunch breakup, they tend to totally lose control with higher gain sounds like you could easily get with the R.30. I think that is also true of most of the other brands of alnico drivers, though some like the 100w Fanes will stay very clean themselves up to high volumes. But most others have relatively light cones and doping, and will tend to breakup pretty early like the 25w G12M - not what you're after.

I'd also not be going for the Jensens if you want the 'British' sound. Fine in Fenders, but IMO they'd not be good with an Orange for getting that sort of sound.

Others I might think about would be some of the Weber and Scumback 'Celest-alikes'. Easier for you though since they are US made.

Andy.

notagain · Post by **notagain** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:06 pm

Has anyone tried the Celestion Relic 30? Supposedly
thousands were sent to GC's all over the USA and were
sold at $49.00. The few reviews I have found liken them
to the V30's without the midrange hump. For the price
reviews are saying they are as good or better then the
V30's. I haven't checked my local GC's yet, they
release them back around Thanksgiving, most GC's appear
to have sold out of them. I did just get a new one on
eBay, a bit over the original price, put to into 1x12
Ear Candy ported cab. So far it sounds really sweet, but
haven't been able to turn it up and really break it in yet.

I have also kinda moved over the the dark side I guess. Find
the Eminence Private Jack, Wizard, and Governor sound better to
my ears then the Celestions they are cloning...

Just my humble, not awake yet, opinion.

Marlis · Post by **Marlis** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:08 pm

Thanks for the expert opinion Andy. I've had the amp since February and play it every day for at least 45 minutes. The speaker is probably halfway broken in but I've played several V30 loaded cabs and had the same opinion of them. Here's a better description of what I want. For cleans, I like the dark character of the amp and don't want to lose that , sounds great with my strat, I want a punchy warm sound with some shimmer in the highs (like an ac30 with blues) but not like an ice pick (like some fender amps sound) and I don't want it to break up too early. For the dity side I use the gain at 3 o'clock at the most so I don't need a speaker designed for modern super hi-gain distortion but more of a vintage rock distortion like the rocker at 2 o'clock if you know what I mean.

Marlis · Post by **Marlis** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:13 pm

I also don't want to lose volume. The G12m is looking good. will I lose volume with this speaker?

Marlis · Post by **Marlis** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:14 pm

I meant G-12H not G-12M sorry

jamison162 · Post by **jamison162** » Tue May 08, 2007 4:13 pm

I'm only giving my opinion based on personal experience here. I have the RV50 head and Avatar Vintage 2x12 Open Back Cab with V30/G12H30. I just sold the G12H30 and have an Eminence Governor on the way to compare the V30 too.

The G12H30 has slightly better low end, but I found it to be brighter and a little more harsh than the V30. Oranges are voiced for V30's and I can say that I prefer the V30 at this point. It is also a little smoother sounding. It's either going to be the V30 or Eminence Governor for me (maybe one of each). If I get bored I might try a Scumback H75, H55, or M75 jsut for kicks.

Does your Rocker have all Chinese preamp tubes like my RV50? Chinese tubes are bright and harsh. Lot of folks like em, like of folks hate em. I have a bunch of 12AX7's I will be trying out soon.

Gabel · Post by **Gabel** » Tue May 08, 2007 4:24 pm

I have a Rocker 30 and agree what has been said, i also find the V30 too modern and aggressive. I am to thinking about changing my speaker. I am going to put in a Weber Silver Bell with Weber's pre- Rola treatment.

TheOrangeJuicer · Post by **TheOrangeJuicer** » Tue May 08, 2007 5:31 pm

I don't know about the G12H30 being brighter. All my listening says it's not at all, but it is warmer and smoother. Maybe a little better bass and less of a high/mid peak. Since it is half the power of the V30, it should break-up sooner. I don't know that the R30 will be too much for it, but you could certainly have damage at full output.

I am also trying out a Celestion Century Vintage, which is a neodymium driver. It is rated 2db lower than the V30 but it actually sounds louder to my ear. I think that is due to its greater midgrange output. Now this speaker definately sounds vintage, like an AlNiCo but with much more control. It is both very clean and powerful yet has a fairly dirty midrange sound that just gives it this "woody, vintage" vibe like nothing short of a real, vintage speaker. I compare it to the Jensen C12R but a little brighter with a lot more headroom as it has at least twice the power rating. These are more expensive and take some additional bass control boost (I set mine to almost 3 o'clock) to match the V30 but it sounds way smoother and more well balanced. It's the most classic sound that I have heard yet. I have still to put the V30 back in there for a reality check but so far the results are very encouraging. I also will want to try the Jensen Neo 12-100 at some point. I really liked the V30, it was just a touch dark and punchy for a true vintage sound. I haven't yet fully finished my tests or decided to keep the Century Vintage in there yet but so far, it does sound very nice.

Andy H. · Post by **Andy H.** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:48 pm

Can't honestly say I've ever found G12H-30s harsh compared to V.30s. To my ears the G12H-30 is definitely the smoother sounding speaker. (Sorry jamison162, but thats the way I've always heard it myself.)

The 30 watt Celestion should handle a cranked 30 watt amp no problem. My only concern would be that it might start to break up a little early for you. Though they break up late compared to G12M25s or Blues, they'll definitely break up sooner than V.30s near the amps full output. Compared to the V.30 the efficiency (volume per watt) is around the same. I think a V.30 will cut through slightly more due to the aggressive upper mids, but othr than that it would be a close call.

Here is a good thread comparing these and other Celestions current and past which might give you a few ideas:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=86938

Yes the Neo magnet Celestion Vintage Century could be another good bet. I've read a few times that neo magnets can have a lot of the nice sonic qualities of alnico magnets BTW.

Never even heard of the Celestion Relic 30...

Andy.

bgarrett_uk · Post by **bgarrett_uk** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:01 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andy H.
 Can't honestly say I've ever found G12H-30s harsh compared to V.30s. To my ears the G12H-30 is definitely the smoother sounding speaker. (Sorry jamison162, but thats the way I've always heard it myself.)

Andy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ditto. Agree with Bill and Andy here - I have a G12H and V30 in my PPC212 and in A/B tests in the studio the G12H is a) warmer for cleans and a much better match for the RV50 clean channel and b) the V30 has a much grittier, in yer face, edge with the mid peak on dirty mid gain'ish as Andy commented on above.

My speakers are broken in (well and truly - over 110 gigs with this rig). The G12H / V30 is a kinda compromise I use for clean/dirty with a single cab (not as good as two rigs but saves space, hassle and Ã‚Â£$Ã‚Â£$).

Also agree with Andy re Alnico's and Blues etc - not a good match for my RV50. I am keen to try out the Neodymium speakers Joe has used.

Can't comment on the Webers/Eminence etc etc. I have used Jensens - good for clean but not so good for dirty.
Cheers
Brian

jamison162 · Post by **jamison162** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:03 pm

Well, I'm going to A/B them again. I guess it's possible Avatar stuck the "Hellatone" stickers on the wrong speakers. But...the G12H30 that I hear as being brighter and a little harsher definitely has better low end, esp. on the clean tones. I'll check em out tonight.

irish_admiral · Post by **irish_admiral** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:40 pm

I agree with Andy & Brian about the G12H vs the Vintage 30. So if you are looking to take down the aggression, try the G12H or the G12M. The Heritage reissues have received some really good reviews.

I'd also recomment the Celestion Hot 100s and Celestion Century Vintages. They are nice open-sounding speakers, bit without the upper mid-hump which characteristically gives Vintage 30s that harsh aggressive nature in some amps. I have gone from Vintage 30s to Century Vintages in both of my cabs now, and am very happy with them. Extremely well-balanced and sweet-sounding speakers. They do clean sounds in a nice "alnico" way, but handle the crunch sounds far better than the alnicos do. To boot, they are very light in weight.

jamison162 · Post by **jamison162** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:53 am

Well I checked and my speakers are labeled correctly, so what I've been saying hold true for my perception of the V30 vs. G12H30.

Maybe these clips will help, I hear these the same way also, G12H30 seam a little brighter/edgier/harsher to my ears.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... comparison

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... eaker+clip

Speaker Change for Rocker 30 combo. suggestions?

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