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PPC 412 straight vs angled

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Post Tue May 25, 2010 4:29 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
So I put an ad on Craigslist about a week ago wanting to trade my PPC212 + cash for a PPC412. I noted that I wanted a straight cab because, well, I've always used them and think they look better. Someone wrote offering to trade me for an angled PPC412. Is there a huge difference in sound? Do you like one better than the other?

I've seriously never owned an angled cab in my life.

Post Tue May 25, 2010 4:47 pm
ironlung40 Orange Master

Posts: 2499
Location: USA
baytamusic wrote:
So I put an ad on Craigslist about a week ago wanting to trade my PPC212 + cash for a PPC412. I noted that I wanted a straight cab because, well, I've always used them and think they look better. Someone wrote offering to trade me for an angled PPC412. Is there a huge difference in sound? Do you like one better than the other?

I've seriously never owned an angled cab in my life.



I like the looks of straight cabs best. As far as sound goes, I think the straight cabs are a little more directional than the slants. the slant points 2 speakers more at your head, while the straight keeps the sound lower. So, in a loud band mix, you may be able to hear yourself a little better with the slant. With the slant cab, the sound is projecting in different directions and not straight ahead like the straight, so it will have a more omnidirectional sound. How much of a difference will it be?....In my opinion not enough to make me want the slant over the straight. the general consensus is that the straight have a little better low end response, that is a bit tighter sounding too. I honestly didn't hear too much of a difference between a marshall 1960A and B cab, but I didn't have the amp cranked at gig volumes either.

A couple of things to consider, which I did, is mic placement for recording. With the straight cab it is easier to do and you get consistent sound throughout the face of the cab. With the slant, I can imagine mic placement may be a little harder to get right with the speakers being angled apart from each other.

Also for gigging, the straight cab has a better platform for your heads to sit on or for stacking other cabs if you need.....this is a very small point, but one to consider anyway, since we musicians are picky people.

I don't really have live gig experience with them for an A to B comparison....but hopefully my points will get the ball rolling to help you look into other areas to help you decide. I'm sure more people will post on here soon too.

Good luck choosing. But, as you know patience is a virtue. If you prefer the straight cabs, wait for one.
Sincerely,
Ironlung40
OR120 Pix/Text thru PPC412
Tiny Terror HW
Gibson SG 61' and Gibson RD Standard
Image

Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:01 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
Ok this guy is asking for the difference between the cabs retail price for the trade. Not happening.

Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:04 pm
Le Chat Noir Duke of Orange

Posts: 5573
Location: United Kingdom
ironlung40 wrote:
A couple of things to consider, which I did, is mic placement for recording. With the straight cab it is easier to do and you get consistent sound throughout the face of the cab. With the slant, I can imagine mic placement may be a little harder to get right with the speakers being angled apart from each other.


Only if you're intent on micing up the top speakers - will make no difference to the bottom two! ;) If you're worried about that, might as well just choose to mic one of the lower pair - problem solved.
Teddy
The Blackwater Rebellion: 2-piece alt rock duo http://theblackwaterrebellion.bandcamp.com/
I play an AD30TC

Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:26 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
Ok, he thought it was an open back. Came to a fair agreement on trade pricing. Now I just need to decide. I guess I'm not in a hurry so maybe waiting for the closed would be good. Although, I'm kind of interested in trying something new. Ugh, they are just so dang ugly though. haha.

I don't really think the micing thing is an issue for recording. We mic very direct. It's probably more of a band practice thing than much of anything else. Most places we'll be playing will be micing me up too so they'll be getting the direct speaker sound more than anything else. I guess the people up front will probably hear the stage sound some though.

I just dream of my new AD50 (shipping tomorrow!!!!!) on top of a 2x12 and straight 4x12 next to my Pro Reverb on top of a 2x12 cab with a Reverb Unit off to the side somewhere running into the Orange. Haha. It's overkill, but I'm ok with that. ;)

Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:38 pm
ironlung40 Orange Master

Posts: 2499
Location: USA
Le Chat Noir wrote:
ironlung40 wrote:
A couple of things to consider, which I did, is mic placement for recording. With the straight cab it is easier to do and you get consistent sound throughout the face of the cab. With the slant, I can imagine mic placement may be a little harder to get right with the speakers being angled apart from each other.


Only if you're intent on micing up the top speakers - will make no difference to the bottom two! ;) If you're worried about that, might as well just choose to mic one of the lower pair - problem solved.



Noted.....but I always mic with a sm57, and then use a condensor mic of sorts set away from the cab....I've found that I like the direction of the straight better for that....But most don't mic this way, obviously....It's all personal preference, If I had gotton a great deal on an angled cab back when I first started, I probably be yelling angled all the way! :lol: I'm just so used to the straight cabs, I wouldn't change em' at this point.
Sincerely,
Ironlung40
OR120 Pix/Text thru PPC412
Tiny Terror HW
Gibson SG 61' and Gibson RD Standard
Image

Post Tue May 25, 2010 5:44 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
ironlung40 wrote:
Le Chat Noir wrote:
ironlung40 wrote:
A couple of things to consider, which I did, is mic placement for recording. With the straight cab it is easier to do and you get consistent sound throughout the face of the cab. With the slant, I can imagine mic placement may be a little harder to get right with the speakers being angled apart from each other.


Only if you're intent on micing up the top speakers - will make no difference to the bottom two! ;) If you're worried about that, might as well just choose to mic one of the lower pair - problem solved.



Noted.....but I always mic with a sm57, and then use a condensor mic of sorts set away from the cab....I've found that I like the direction of the straight better for that....But most don't mic this way, obviously....It's all personal preference, If I had gotton a great deal on an angled cab back when I first started, I probably be yelling angled all the way! :lol: I'm just so used to the straight cabs, I wouldn't change em' at this point.


We actually mic with a sm57 up close, a Seinnheiser up close, and a condensor back about 2-4 feet. Although, we found out that it sounds best to pick one mic for a mix and stick with it. Mixing the mics sounds muddy or something. We also have 2 guitar players so that might be why. We usually end up picking the Seinnheiser. The 57 just sounds kinda meh usually.

Post Tue May 25, 2010 6:44 pm
Dopp238 Orange Hero

Posts: 394
Location: Baltimore, MD
We actually mic with a sm57 up close, a Seinnheiser up close, and a condensor back about 2-4 feet. Although, we found out that it sounds best to pick one mic for a mix and stick with it. Mixing the mics sounds muddy or something. We also have 2 guitar players so that might be why. We usually end up picking the Seinnheiser. The 57 just sounds kinda meh usually.


I'm assuming you're talking about the 421 yeah? Cause I've never found a better mic to record a cab through. Personally, I like the blend of the 57 and the 421, but if I was only going to pick one, I'd choose the 421 any day of the week. The 57 just doesn't have the balls...
Daniel.

AD30HTC / PPC412 / PPC212 / 92 Les Paul Studio / 07 Fender Tele

Image

Post Tue May 25, 2010 7:49 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
Dopp238 wrote:
We actually mic with a sm57 up close, a Seinnheiser up close, and a condensor back about 2-4 feet. Although, we found out that it sounds best to pick one mic for a mix and stick with it. Mixing the mics sounds muddy or something. We also have 2 guitar players so that might be why. We usually end up picking the Seinnheiser. The 57 just sounds kinda meh usually.


I'm assuming you're talking about the 421 yeah? Cause I've never found a better mic to record a cab through. Personally, I like the blend of the 57 and the 421, but if I was only going to pick one, I'd choose the 421 any day of the week. The 57 just doesn't have the balls...


Actually I'm not sure what model it is. They aren't my mics. I'll have to check. Whatever it is, it makes the 57 sound kinda lame really.

Post Wed May 26, 2010 2:09 am
gabrielstigmatic Tiny Terror

Posts: 137
Location: Jeffersonville, IN

Bayta, this is just a note from a recording major: putting two mics up close on the cab will cause phasing issues. It's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule when recording with multiple mics. Don't take my word for it, just do your recording research. Though I've seen a few resources that state this rule only applies with two or more sound sources. This could be misinterpreted as that "it's okay to have two mics up close on a cab."

This is not the case at all, unless you're using the off axis method with both mics!!! And no, the phase button on your console will not fix really bad phase problems, it's just how the math works. Once you've caused fricked up phasing you're stuck with it, so that's why it's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule. I'm guessing that you have more than one type of speaker on your cab and want a mic up close on both. That's why reamping was invented!

If you don't know the concept of reamping, here is a short explanation. Record a DI signal at the same time as your miced signal. After that, take the output of your DI signal and plug it in to your amp's input. Then record all of the different toneage to your heart's content! I will post some pictures of what I mean later this week. I don't have my school books with me right now.

Though it does depend on how you have the mics placed. Either way, 3 to 1 is definitely necessary. If you're wanting the "off axis sound" then you can record two different cones at once if they're off axis from one another. Meaning one is angled one way and the other is angled opposite. The way you're micing definitely sounds like a phase nightmare though, especially with the third mic in the mix.

To add a third mic in an "off axis mix" you would have to have the third mic also "off axis" in the same angle as your mics that are up close to not have phase issues. Which would kind of ruin the point of a room mic, most of the time room mics are pointing straight at the cab. Reamping is a great solution if you want to record with different mics and don't want to deal with phasing issues. If you haven't kept these rules in mind, that may explain the "muddiness" you experience when recording with more than one mic. Just some suggestions, hope you get the sound you want.
http://www.myspace.com/gabriellongmusic

We’re all becoming fluent in arbitrary tongues
That never got the message through in the first place
As if anyone knew, knew in the first place
Not in the first place

Post Wed May 26, 2010 3:48 am
Dopp238 Orange Hero

Posts: 394
Location: Baltimore, MD
gabrielstigmatic wrote:
Bayta, this is just a note from a recording major: putting two mics up close on the cab will cause phasing issues. It's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule when recording with multiple mics. Don't take my word for it, just do your recording research. Though I've seen a few resources that state this rule only applies with two or more sound sources. This could be misinterpreted as that "it's okay to have two mics up close on a cab."

This is not the case at all, unless you're using the off axis method with both mics!!! And no, the phase button on your console will not fix really bad phase problems, it's just how the math works. Once you've caused fricked up phasing you're stuck with it, so that's why it's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule. I'm guessing that you have more than one type of speaker on your cab and want a mic up close on both. That's why reamping was invented!

If you don't know the concept of reamping, here is a short explanation. Record a DI signal at the same time as your miced signal. After that, take the output of your DI signal and plug it in to your amp's input. Then record all of the different toneage to your heart's content! I will post some pictures of what I mean later this week. I don't have my school books with me right now.

Though it does depend on how you have the mics placed. Either way, 3 to 1 is definitely necessary. If you're wanting the "off axis sound" then you can record two different cones at once if they're off axis from one another. Meaning one is angled one way and the other is angled opposite. The way you're micing definitely sounds like a phase nightmare though, especially with the third mic in the mix.

To add a third mic in an "off axis mix" you would have to have the third mic also "off axis" in the same angle as your mics that are up close to not have phase issues. Which would kind of ruin the point of a room mic, most of the time room mics are pointing straight at the cab. Reamping is a great solution if you want to record with different mics and don't want to deal with phasing issues. If you haven't kept these rules in mind, that may explain the "muddiness" you experience when recording with more than one mic. Just some suggestions, hope you get the sound you want.


While I'm sure that was meant to be helpful, I felt like that came across as a little condescending... (Or maybe I'm just being sensitive :) ). Re-amping is rad if you have a nice rig for it (or if you're in school and you get to use real nice stuff you won't actually have when you start out with your own studio) but I've never found it to work well if you're playing off your amp... The signal is simply that, just a signal. So any inflections you'd play with, any emotion you'd normally have, it's not gonna be there if you re-amp. I'm just not a fan... We did it in school too, and we also used $4k pre-amps and $2k mics... It'll be a LOOOOOONG time til I ever use something like that in my own studio. I'd rather spend the $1k I'd drop on a really nice re-amp rig on a good pre-amp or something like that. But, that's just my opinion.
Daniel.

AD30HTC / PPC412 / PPC212 / 92 Les Paul Studio / 07 Fender Tele

Image

Post Wed May 26, 2010 4:16 am
gabrielstigmatic Tiny Terror

Posts: 137
Location: Jeffersonville, IN

Aw man, I really didn't mean for it to be, honestly. I apologize that it came off that way. I should probably never be a teacher because of the way things come out sometimes. I didn't graduate with anything tremendous, I bought a really basic Pro Tools LE setup. Most of re-amping stuff can be done if you have at least one input and one output on your interface. The whole deal with re-amping not catching dynamic inflections is a matter of opinion.

I understand that you might not be a fan. Sure, it sounds quite a bit better with a DI box and a Re-amp box in the signal chain. I've done it several times with my recordings without that kind of equipment and it ended up sounding really good. Most of the time it depends on how both were miced because some mic techniques don't complement each other as well. So it might not sit nearly as well in the mix. When I mix miced signals and re-amped signals it takes a lot of work and time mixing and matching.

With most recordings I do, I tend to just re-mic until I get that sweet spot that sounds good to me. On other recordings, I've gotten a really good performance from just a straight DI and wanted to just keep that performance. So I re-amped it and cranked the level on my amp and which sounded sweet to me. I've never had anyone ask me, "Did you just record that DI and re-amp it because it sounds shitty?" As you said though, it's all a matter of preference.

I shouldn't have been so matter of fact about the suggestions I was making. Those rules really can be arbitrary, sometimes it's good to break the "rules" to get a different sound. I've had recordings where out of phase signals gave me a really cool effect/sound. (Ex. Phase Shifter) :D As your sig says, "Let it be a sweet sweet sound to Your ear..." Make the music you like, the way you like to hear it. No matter if that means breaking every single "rule" in the book.

Some recording engineers that get paid the big bucks spend hours trying to find the sweet spots on different amps. Often the mixing engineers find there is no need for mixing after this kind of meticulous work. Others re-amp the pile of poop out of everything and it sounds just as good. So it comes down to the fact that every person should do what sounds good to them. One man's opus is another man's coaster.
http://www.myspace.com/gabriellongmusic

We’re all becoming fluent in arbitrary tongues
That never got the message through in the first place
As if anyone knew, knew in the first place
Not in the first place

Post Wed May 26, 2010 6:27 am
Dopp238 Orange Hero

Posts: 394
Location: Baltimore, MD
It's all good buddy! No blood, no foul! :wink: :wink:

Recording is such an opinionated process... what one person swears by, another may despise. I'm SURE I've listened to recordings that has the guitars being reamped and I'd never know it. I've probably even looked at my recording buddy and said, man, you hear that guitar? That sounds great! Why don't our guitars ever sound like that? Haha!! Personally, I've never had success, but that doesn't mean it's not something worth doing. Give it a shot, see how the mix sounds! If it sounds good, that's all that matters. Who cares how you got the sound, the point is it sounds good. Right?!

Also, I kinda had a crappy day today... so I probably came across kinda arrogant. That's not me, and so I apologize for that. I shouldn't have taken my frustrations out on you. So... let's be friends. Deal? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Daniel.

AD30HTC / PPC412 / PPC212 / 92 Les Paul Studio / 07 Fender Tele

Image

Post Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 pm
gabrielstigmatic Tiny Terror

Posts: 137
Location: Jeffersonville, IN

It's all good, I didn't take it as you being arrogant. I don't read too much into people's tone online. It's near impossible unless it is specifically reiterated what the intention was. But yea, I don't have qualms at all. As far as I'm concerned we're on the same page.

Even if we weren't, I would agree to disagree and let it go. Deal, this is one of the more chill forums I've ever posted on. Most of them I've joined (ex. band forums) the members end up flaming each other all of the time for having differing opinions.

Btw, sorry I completely changed the subject. It really depends, I kind of hate the slanted cabs. I agree that they are damn ugly. Whatever floats your boat though, if you want an Orange then go for it. If I were to go for an Orange, I would wait for a straight cab.
http://www.myspace.com/gabriellongmusic

We’re all becoming fluent in arbitrary tongues
That never got the message through in the first place
As if anyone knew, knew in the first place
Not in the first place

Post Fri May 28, 2010 7:42 pm
baytamusic Duke of Orange

Posts: 5296
Location: Chicago
gabrielstigmatic wrote:
Bayta, this is just a note from a recording major: putting two mics up close on the cab will cause phasing issues. It's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule when recording with multiple mics. Don't take my word for it, just do your recording research. Though I've seen a few resources that state this rule only applies with two or more sound sources. This could be misinterpreted as that "it's okay to have two mics up close on a cab."

This is not the case at all, unless you're using the off axis method with both mics!!! And no, the phase button on your console will not fix really bad phase problems, it's just how the math works. Once you've caused fricked up phasing you're stuck with it, so that's why it's best to stick with the 3 to 1 rule. I'm guessing that you have more than one type of speaker on your cab and want a mic up close on both. That's why reamping was invented!

If you don't know the concept of reamping, here is a short explanation. Record a DI signal at the same time as your miced signal. After that, take the output of your DI signal and plug it in to your amp's input. Then record all of the different toneage to your heart's content! I will post some pictures of what I mean later this week. I don't have my school books with me right now.

Though it does depend on how you have the mics placed. Either way, 3 to 1 is definitely necessary. If you're wanting the "off axis sound" then you can record two different cones at once if they're off axis from one another. Meaning one is angled one way and the other is angled opposite. The way you're micing definitely sounds like a phase nightmare though, especially with the third mic in the mix.

To add a third mic in an "off axis mix" you would have to have the third mic also "off axis" in the same angle as your mics that are up close to not have phase issues. Which would kind of ruin the point of a room mic, most of the time room mics are pointing straight at the cab. Reamping is a great solution if you want to record with different mics and don't want to deal with phasing issues. If you haven't kept these rules in mind, that may explain the "muddiness" you experience when recording with more than one mic. Just some suggestions, hope you get the sound you want.


Don't worry, I didn't take it as talking down at all. We manage to get good sounds even though we have no idea what we are doing.

Question:

So why aren't there phasing issues when using 2 drum overhead mics at the same time since it's basically the same thing as using 2 mics on a guitar cabinet? We use the Glyn Johns method of micing the drums and we just make sure both overheads are the same distance from the center of the snare drum. Never have any problems.

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